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Discussion Starter #1
Hi!

This is my first post.

I have 2 dogs - one is a brown male standard poodle weighing 85 lbs. The other is a black female standard poodle weighing 54 lbs.

i have just switched over to raw food after having 2 months!!! of mainly diarrhea or soft poo from them. I have been beside myself with vet visits and trying to figure this out.

I started with no food for 2 days, except for pumpkin and this product from a raw food pet store. After ONE applicaiton of the powder (I had tried pumpkin and many, many other vet suggested things/pills), the diarrhea is gone. I can't believe it!!

So now that I've started, I'm concerned about the salmonella in the dog poop. I'm not worried about salmonella on the dogs, etc.

I have a fenced area that they eliminate in. So I'm thinking - Pick up the poo, but the salmonella could still be on the rocks. So dogs go walk through there to eliminate, they pick up the salmonella from the poop.

Should I spray bleach every time after I pick up the poo??

This is my last worry over raw feeding. I am just so siiiccckkk of my dogs' diarrhea, that they're never going back to kibble. I just need some advice about how anal (sorry for the pun) to get in this poop thing.

Thanks!!
Carol
 

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Most newbies to raw are worried about bacteria. Salmonella doesn't persist in the environment long, so if you clean up your dog's excrement right away you should be fine. I wouldn't worry about spraying bleach to sanitize...that seems a bit over the top.
 

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Hey Carol, Welcome to the board. Don't worry about salmonella. It is everywhere. It was everywhere before you ever got dogs. It was everywhere when you fed kibble. Its really no big deal.

I rarely wash my hands when handling my dog's food. I just rinse my hands and dry them off. I don't clean the dog's eating places ... they do that. :smile: I wash their bowls maybe once a month if that often. They only eat out of bowls a few times a week.

I just never concern myself with bacteria of any kind. I've been feeding raw for 8 years. I don't get sick. My dogs don't get sick. My wife never gets sick. My grandchildren never get sick when they visit. Visitors don't get sick.
 

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Well first of all, welcome! We're glad to have you here. :smile:

I wouldn't worry about salmonella in a raw fed dog's poo as much as I would salmonella in a kibble fed dog's poo. From what I understand, there is actually a higher rate of salmonella in kibble "elimination" as there is in raw poos.

So if you weren't worried before the switch, I wouldn't worry now. Salmonella is one of those things that practically everywhere. I wouldn't overly concern myself about it.

Also, some others with more experience will need to chime in, but I've never heard of a raw fed dog stepping in raw meat or their poo, tracking it in the house, and the family coming down with salmonella. :biggrin:

Ask any and all questions you can think of! We're here to help.

Richelle
 

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I agree with what everyone here has said.

I'd be much more worried about salmonella and e.coli etc. in a kibble fed dog than a raw fed one.

Just do the basics with sanitation, you don't have to go overboard at all.

I'm glad that the diarrhea has stopped and that they are doing well on a raw diet. Do you still have them on a pre-made?

I assume the powder you used was a probiotic?
 

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Hi Carol,

The first time I switched to raw feeding I went through a heck of a time getting Jody's stools normal. I tried again with the advice of the wonderful people here on this sight and I can tell you my GSD has had no diarrhea since I started a month ago. Don't hesitate to ask for help next time you are going through this because I guarantee you others are too and we can all learn.

My dog's stool are easy to pick up now and there is none left on the grass or rocks once I pick it up (that I can see) so that won't be an issue once you
get your dog's stool stabilized. I don't worry about the rabbit poop, goose poop, or bird poop in my backyard so I am not going to worry about the remants of dog stool. If I kibble fed, that is another story. Those are a mess to pick up and to leave remnants.

Tami
 

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salmonella is everywhere...and getting it has more to do with you or your dog's immune system than anything else.

salmonella lives on surfaces for quite a while....but so does staph and many bacterium...

we live in a society that has glorified, almost saintified the nasty staph and salmonella and e.coli and all the other millions of bacterium....and fungi and viruses and, and, and...:)

feed your dog raw.....and you eat a salad daily...cut down on the starches, get some exercise just because your heart wants you to....exercise your dog....

and honest, the likelihood of 'getting' a bacterial infection goes way way down....to like nothing.

it's the immune system..not the germ....usually.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
thanks!

Wow!! Everyone has been so helpful!!!:smile:

I'm really surprised that the dog poop area is such a non-issue!

The powder I used for fixing the diarrhea is called ST-C. It contains peppermint, chamomile, dandelion root, slippery elm, marshmallow root, fennel, ginger root, oregon grape (wild harvested), rosemary leaf and tumeric.

My brown poodle absolutely is crazy about the raw food. Now everytime I open the fridge he stares at me hopefully; whereas before, he didn't care about the fridge. My black poodle is more tentative, and she ignored the chicken heart I put in her bowl. Today, the 2nd day of the new diet, I'm going to give them chicken backs.

Wish me luck!!

Carol
 

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hi, carol...if your dogs have been having diarrhea and soft poops these past few months, may i suggest that you start with chicken backs and feed that and that only....for a little while?

if their stools don't solidify, remove some of the skin and definitely remove the excess organs on the back?

they won't be needing organs for about two months...

here are two links that should help, if you've not read them already --

How to get started | Prey Model Raw

and

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB
 

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On the topic of Salmonella in stools, a theory (and that's all it is, a theory) has been bandied about in the raw community that kibble-fed dogs do not have the same natural level of acidity in their stomach acid as raw fed or wild dogs do due to the effect of carbs, grains, and plant matter on their digestive pH levels. Normally, canine stomach acid is about 4-times more acidic than human stomach acid but the theory goes that the introduction of these non-species appropriate foods to their diet has effectively "watered down" the acidity in the stomachs of dogs fed commercial food.

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't even though I've never been able to confirm it through any scientific research, it's quite possible that raw fed dogs actually have LESS bacterial and protozoal output in their feces than kibble fed dogs, even if they are sometimes ingesting more. This could be due to the lower pH (higher acidity) in the dog's stomach which kills most of this stuff as it moves through the digestive process.

I've inquired here before about any science or research behind this in this thread from last year.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1857-stomach-acid-ph-raw-fed-dogs.html

As far as I know there isn't any, but it all started because I noticed that my two dogs, which used to pick up every parasite on the planet when they were on kibble, haven't had a single episode of this since being on raw. I can't help but think that even through they may still be ingesting these organisms, since we go to the mountains a lot and they play in and drink a lot of stream and lake water, the organisms are no longer surviving in the harsh, natural environment of their guts.

I have nothing to back this up. It's just a curious observation I've made about my own dogs. But I'd like to think there is something to it.
 

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On the topic of Salmonella in stools, a theory (and that's all it is, a theory) has been bandied about in the raw community that kibble-fed dogs do not have the same natural level of acidity in their stomach acid as raw fed or wild dogs do due to the effect of carbs, grains, and plant matter on their digestive pH levels. Normally, canine stomach acid is about 4-times more acidic than human stomach acid but the theory goes that the introduction of these non-species appropriate foods to their diet has effectively "watered down" the acidity in the stomachs of dogs fed commercial food.

If this is true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't even though I've never been able to confirm it through any scientific research, it's quite possible that raw fed dogs actually have LESS bacterial and protozoal output in their feces than kibble fed dogs, even if they are sometimes ingesting more. This could be due to the lower pH (higher acidity) in the dog's stomach which kills most of this stuff as it moves through the digestive process.

I've inquired here before about any science or research behind this in this thread from last year.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1857-stomach-acid-ph-raw-fed-dogs.html

As far as I know there isn't any, but it all started because I noticed that my two dogs, which used to pick up every parasite on the planet when they were on kibble, haven't had a single episode of this since being on raw. I can't help but think that even through they may still be ingesting these organisms, since we go to the mountains a lot and they play in and drink a lot of stream and lake water, the organisms are no longer surviving in the harsh, natural environment of their guts.

I have nothing to back this up. It's just a curious observation I've made about my own dogs. But I'd like to think there is something to it.
i think your observation is very similar to the one i am experiencing now
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Magic (I wish I could see your response when I am replying, I can't remember if that's your right call name. Anyway - yes, I saw those and an going by them. Those are really good sheets on what to do. Very specific. I like that!!

Thanks next poster (again, which I could see your response when I am replying - can't remember your call name). That's a very good observation. Especially the part about your dogs contracting less illnesses now.

I just finished feeding my dogs. I feel like I don't want to touch them because of germs. My daughter (14) is petting the dogs, saying don't be ridiculous mom. I'm sure I'll start feeling better about that soon.:redface:

My black dog only ate two 2 inch pieces of chicken back. I had to cut it for her, since she only licked them, then looked at me. I'm wondering if she's just not sure what to do or if it's her teeth. The vet (last time there) said that her teeth were very worn down. I guess it could be from all of the nylabone powerful chewer bones I got her. Her teeth might hurt?

My brown dog loves raw food and chews those backs down like there's no tomorrow. He's about a year and a half old and still has nice white teeth.

Well, see how it goes tomorrow!! :smile:

Carol
 

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My black dog only ate two 2 inch pieces of chicken back. I had to cut it for her, since she only licked them, then looked at me.
Don't cut them for her. You aren't doing her a favor. She will eventually figure out how to eat them on her own. The more you help her the slower her learning process will be. Give her the chicken back, step back, and leave her alone. Don't hover over her. It will only make her nervous.

The vet (last time there) said that her teeth were very worn down. I guess it could be from all of the nylabone powerful chewer bones I got her. Her teeth might hurt?
If she still chews on Nylabones, they are ok. :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hey, I just figured out the quick reply function!!! Yeah for me!!

Anyway... Okay I won't cut them and I won't hover (yes, I've been hovering and even trying to put the food in her mouth. Yes..I know...I'll stop. LOL)

Do you touch your dogs face? I can't seem to do that anymore. I keep thinking of the germs. I can touch their faces after may 3 hours after they have eaten. But I think of the germs while I'm doing it. I even tie their ears up with a pony tail holder while they eat. Please reassure me on this touching the dogs' faces and paws (when they hold their food). Or should I just touch their backs. My husband and kids think I'm crazy about this germ thing. They say to trust you guys. So please tell me something good about this aspect so that I can relax a bit more.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

It's really funny to see my brown poodle try to eat the food that my black one won't eat. He is just SO eager.

Carol
 

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you can call me Re, Carol...

in the beginning, i saw my dogs as one gigunda germ field....it gets less and less, at least for me...

my malia didn't know what to do with raw, so she circled it, left it, sniffed it, looked at me like i was the crazy one...and i hovered, too.

i found the more i hovered...the harder it was for her to do anything. and i figured out that i was making HER nervous...so i stepped back, started my mental twenty minute timer....and within 24 hours, she was eating chicken backs....

the pug on the other hand, tried to swallow his whole because, well, he IS a pug and he does dance with food :)

fast forward....six months later...they, to my complete and utter amazement and joy...have figured it out all by themselves...

it took a while, but they kiss, lick, snuggle....

every time you kiss a child, a husband, a friend.....think about the germs on their skin, their lips.....

as time goes by, their teeth, jaws, and necks get stronger. what my pug couldn't eat, he now eats easily in regard to boney food.....if your dogs have gingivitis, feeding them chicken backs should clear that up pretty quickly...

i don't feed nylabones...and i am not so sure they are necessary...but for now, you have to do what's comfortable for you...

i don't know that i would let one dog eat the other's leftovers....simply because you don't want one to get fat LOL...
 

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Do you touch your dogs face?
Yes and I don't think anything about it.

I can touch their faces after may 3 hours after they have eaten.
You can touch them the instant they get through eating.

But I think of the germs while I'm doing it. I even tie their ears up with a pony tail holder while they eat. Please reassure me on this touching the dogs' faces and paws (when they hold their food). Or should I just touch their backs.
It's fine to touch their faces anytime. This meat isn't nearly as full of germs as you think.

My husband and kids think I'm crazy about this germ thing. They say to trust you guys. So please tell me something good about this aspect so that I can relax a bit more.
I'm with your husband and kids on this. :smile: I've been raw feeding for 8 years and just never think about germs unless the meat is REAL rotten when I feed it and I have a sneaky little feeling you won't feed meat like that. :smile:
 

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maybe not so much touching whilst they are eating...

right after? big hugs and sloppy wet kisses, because they did so well.

take a book into wherever they are eating and pretend to read.

if they feel your tension, and they will.....it will make them tense...we don't want tense.

have a martini whilst you feed them...because believe me, they need no reassurance....remember, this is a challenge to them they've never had before....kibble is certainly no challenge. this is...makes them think...

watch their faces as they figure it out.....when their light bulbs go on, it's better than your kid graduating from college.
 

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Carol,

I am so excited that you are following the advice of DFC's and going with the chicken backs. Like I said before, I had a horrible transition with my dog Jody. With some help from the people here I started with chicken backs and I was able to drop the probiotics, pumpkin, and other supplements. It is so nice to be able to feed a whole raw diet without the needed to add other things. I bet since you are introducing raw nice and slow and following a plan, you won't see diarrhea and the need to supplement.

I agree with the advice to not watch or hover over your dog. Jody has been on raw for a month now and if I watch her she just watches me. I have to give her permission to eat and then purposely look somewhere else.

Tami
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks Re - it's so cute to think of your pug so enamored with the raw food. Snorty piggy-like. PUgs are soooo cute!! No...I won't let Toffee (brown dog) eat Jellybean's (black dog) food. With kibble, they would eat as much as they wanted, and then walk away. They never overate. But I think Toffee would just gorge on the raw - he likes it soooo much!! Big sloppy kisses - it may take awhile...but I'll get there.

RFD - no, you're right LOL - I won't be feeding rotten meat any time soon. Okay, I can do this!! Deep breath.

Tami - Yes, the slow way is working - no more diarrhea!!! They had diarrhea all summer - now it's gone!!!! Halleluiah!!

I'm off to feed them - and I won't hover. I'll give them their food and go visit with my roses (whilst keeping an eye on Toffee so he doesn't eat Jelly's food.)

Thank you guys so much!!! What a support team you all are!!!

Carol
 

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Well, it went well! I went outside with their bowls, made them sit and wait, gave them their food and walked away with my rose clippers like I always do - no biggie, nothing new going on, business as usual, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, etc. So Jelly looked at me, then got her food and ate it. No big deal for her!!! Big deal for me!!! Poos are still great. I've been petting my dogs - still a little queasy about it, but trying to get over that. I threw the ball for them after they ate, but I wore a glove. I always used to open their mouths to look at their teeth and to show them that I can do anything with them that I want to do - but now I don't want to do that. I am curious as to how her gums look - but I guess after one raw bone feeding they're not going to change much LOL. I am going to get better about the germaphobia, but I'll give myself a few days. LOL

I'm very positive about the change over. I'm very glad I'm doing this. Thanks for all of your help and advice (especially about the germs).

Carol
 
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