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Discussion Starter #1
...so I'm in Barnes and Noble last night. Pick up a John Stossel book...you know, the guy who likes to point out how everything we know is wrong. Believe he moved over to Fox News now.

So he writes this book about all these different topics...such as "how cheap coffee is just as good as expensive coffee(I always love how people can rate taste), why regular gas is fine for most cars(actually true), why bottled water is a rip off, etc...etc...etc....

So he hits on Premium Dog Food and why it just doesn't matter and that there is no difference. He even has a quote from the head of Tufts University Vet School stating that he's seen no evidence that premium foods are any better for Dogs. And I've heard this before from the Veterinary community....that there is little evidence that the elite foods are worth it.

Now, in my heart, I don't buy what he says. Good lord, the boxes of Acana, Orijen and EVO state this. Logic tells me of course it is better to feed better food to our Dogs. How could it not be better? My Dogs are visibly healthier on better foods and I have very high standards in what I deem to be an ethical, reliable company....

But I have to be honest, guys...I do pause to think at times. What if they're right? What if we do all of this and it really doesn't matter much? Honestly, growing up...we fed the store brand foods to all of our dogs and they lived to be 15+...almost all of them. Heck, we even had a stray Dog and I swear she was near 20 years when I finally had to say goodbye. Pedigree and supermarket food her entire life.

But it gets me to thinking at times...I'm only being honest here. NO, I will never go away from feeding top quality foods. Never. But there will always be about 10% of me that kind of wonders..."what if I'm wrong on this?"

I guess I'm not looking for answers, just friendly thoughts and discussion. Its a hot topic and kind of gets to the core of why we believe what we do....I enjoy hearing others opinions.
 

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Nope, the only evidence I need is having a healthy dog. I think most people do not pay attention to small details(or not so small) when it comes to dogs health, so something like dull coats, heavy shedding, weight gain, eye/ear infections, hot spots and later more chronic diseases that come with age, are dismissed because most people think its normal.
When I was growing up, I honestly never paid attention to those things, I didnt know anything about nutrition and Pedigree was considered a premium food, one thing I remember is that most dogs had that typical icky dog smell.

Unless theres a life-long study that compares the effects of premium vs. grocery store brand food, I dont trust their vet approved sources because we all know where the funding comes from.
 

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Remember one thing back in the day, things were a lot cheaper to produce, they didn't use all the preservatives they do now and there probably were decent ingredients in those foods back then. It all comes down to the bottom line, how much money can they make, so over time, more filler less meat and more preservatives for longer shelf life.

The top of the line foods today I'll compare with more of the organic industry, they just want to be really careful about what is going into their product as they have come to realize that like humans, dogs are more a part of the family and people will/do spend billions of dollars a year on them.
 
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There are always the exceptions to every rule. When I grew up in the 60's, our lab died at age 7, and all our other dogs died at about the same ages. Dogs lived in the yard and took their chances and whatever ones weren't hit by cars, got dog chow, had puppies, and died young. Ours were lucky in that we spayed them. Even my dogs in the 80's and 90's died at ages 12, 10, 9, and 8 from various cancers and diseases ( and I worked for vets). The only one I had that lived to 16 was a grumpy Lhasa Apso and they are just naturally long lived.

The same can be said for people. My Grandma lived to be 92 eating all German sausages, beer, pork, potatoes, pastries and only a rare vegetable. I'm not sure that it means I should follow her footsteps and eat that way my whole life (although it would be a lot more fun!) I really think you need to look at a huge amount of numbers and long term survival rates, plus the quality of life to get any kind of acurate statistics. Otherwise we can all eat beer and sausage and feed dog chow (don't worry, be happy! )
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Remember one thing back in the day, things were a lot cheaper to produce, they didn't use all the preservatives they do now and there probably were decent ingredients in those foods back then. It all comes down to the bottom line, how much money can they make, so over time, more filler less meat and more preservatives for longer shelf life.

The top of the line foods today I'll compare with more of the organic industry, they just want to be really careful about what is going into their product as they have come to realize that like humans, dogs are more a part of the family and people will/do spend billions of dollars a year on them.

Interesting point...I'd add this...if you go back about 70-80 years, I don't believe Dog Food even existed. Seriously, I think Dog Food as a kibble is relatively new.
 

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Interesting point...I'd add this...if you go back about 70-80 years, I don't believe Dog Food even existed. Seriously, I think Dog Food as a kibble is relatively new.
This is exactly why I don't feed kibble. What did dogs live off of back then?
 

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And I believe that dogs were healthier back then...at least nutritionally wise. Medical advancements have really pushed the average life spans of domesticated animals to further and further limits.
 

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It's true that dogs HAVE survived on commercial pet food for many many years. I suppose it would be easy to second guess that $70 bag of Orijen for that $18 bag of Pedigree.

What it comes down to for me is: dogs are carnivores, and we know that as a fact... so to me, feeding a diet as close to possible to that would be ideal. The premium foods ARE better without a doubt because they contain more meat for those carnivores.
They also (usually) tend to contain less common allergens, and undigestable ingredients so they're undoubtedly better.

Dogs CAN survive on cheap food. I CAN survive on tv dinners and Taco Bell, but I'm probably not going to reach optimum health that way. To me, giving them something healthier, if it's within my means, makes me sleep better at night.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Curious about your stance....seriously....

You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......

I'm assuming those of you feeding real/raw food must believe that the beauty of all of the above ingredients are completely destroyed or negated during the processing of the food?

Is it safe to assume that this is your stance?
 

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Curious about your stance....seriously....

You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......

I'm assuming those of you feeding real/raw food must believe that the beauty of all of the above ingredients are completely destroyed or negated during the processing of the food?

Is it safe to assume that this is your stance?
Well, aside from fruits and veggies, yes, those would be good things for dogs.
It's true that MOST of the nutritional content is probably destroyed, but not all of it. In my mind, if something is going to be downgraded, I'd want to start with it as good as possible.

This is a poor example, but it made sense in my mind.
On a scale from one to ten, if you placed nutritional value of, say, venison at a 10 prior to processing, then all the processing might devalue it to, say, a 6.
If you did the same with an ingredient like Corn, it would start at maybe a 3 and be devalued to 1 or 0 by the end.
So, by starting at a higher quality, you'd still end at a higher quality.

I know, terrible example, I had no idea how to put it in writing from my head.
 

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Curious about your stance....seriously....

You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......

I'm assuming those of you feeding real/raw food must believe that the beauty of all of the above ingredients are completely destroyed or negated during the processing of the food?

Is it safe to assume that this is your stance?
ALL nutrients are not destroyed through the process of making dog food, but a lot of them are taken out by the cooking process. This is a fact.

I will agree with you and say that the fish (even though its been deboned-it would be better if the bones were still in) and chicken are excellent for dogs.

If all the nutrients were destroyed or negated, dogs wouldn't survive on kibble. The fact that dogs CAN survive on kibble means that there is available nutrition to them. BUT the fact that so much of kibble goes in one end and right back out the other means that A LOT of what goes into kibble is utterly useless to a dog.
 

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Curious about your stance....seriously....

You guys must admit that Deboned Walleye, Lake Whitefish, Fruits, Vegetables, Free Range Chicken.....the ingredients of Orijen and Acana....are all excellent for Dogs.......

I'm assuming those of you feeding real/raw food must believe that the beauty of all of the above ingredients are completely destroyed or negated during the processing of the food?

Is it safe to assume that this is your stance?
If ingredients were completely destroyed or negated from processing of food, then there would be no nutrition left at all in human food after processing, either. And in fact, that is what people who eat entirely raw food are trying to claim. Obviously people and dogs do eat processed foods and stay healthy. I have lived with southerners in my family who cook the bejeezus out of vegies and live into their 90's.

I'll go along with the idea of starting with best ingredients and doing the least processing possible but not necessarily no processing. Scientist claim that the enzymes in the stomach react with food before it gets to the small intestine anyway, so having it processed minimally is no different then having stomach enzymes work on it.

Give the dog the best you can afford and then don't worry about it. Dogs are pretty adaptable. Like kids..... mine managed to grow up without all organic, raw, holistic food and both still grew over 6'3" tall. Even had an occasional Happy Meal and one played semi-pro sports and he hates vegies so go figure.
 

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BUT the fact that so much of kibble goes in one end and right back out the other means that A LOT of what goes into kibble is utterly useless to a dog.
If you saw how tiny the poops were that Rocky and Chelsy make on EVO you might rethink that. They turn white and sandy and crumble into dust in a few days and I don't even pick up the yard anymore. I can't imagine how he could eat less.
 

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If you saw how tiny the poops were that Rocky and Chelsy make on EVO you might rethink that. They turn white and sandy and crumble into dust in a few days and I don't even pick up the yard anymore. I can't imagine how he could eat less.
I used to feed EVO, and my dogs would have small, compact stools that would turn white in the sun. I was even further amazed how small and compact my dog's stools were when I switched to raw. Bailey the Dane poops are like chihuahua sized LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Chowder,

Thats funny....I was seeing similar poops in my yard....dried up and disintegrated to nothing when I moved it around.

I'll say this...its a clever and logical stance to believe that cooking destroys much of the nutrients in food. It certainly sounds fair. I'm just not sure whether or not its true.
 

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It holds true for humans, there is plenty of research done on that. I would assume that if nutrients are killed in the cooking/processing of food for humans it would be the same for dogs. Here are a few articles:

https://sedonalabspro.com/information/health_matters/Enzymes.pdf

ftp://166.111.30.161/incoming/new_book/Fohttps://sedonalabspro.com/information/health_matters/Enzymes.pdfod Science/Nutrition Handbook for Food Processors/36659_14.pdf

ETA: Some nutrients are not destroyed by cooking or processing, and others are even amplified by *light* cooking. Although, in no way do I see the rendering, cooking/extruding and further processing of dog food is related to this in any way. What dog food goes through from the bare ingredients to the final product can be compared to "light cooking."
 

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Here is an interesting article on the changes vegies go thru when humans cook them and how some nutrients are increased when you cook them. It's a little off topic but I thought it was a really interesting since I decided to research Raw Food for humans for health reasons ( and then totally vetoed the idea!!!).

Fact or Fiction: Raw veggies are healthier than cooked ones: Scientific American

Tomatoes actually improve after cooking for 30 minutes! But I'll still enjoy a good fresh tomato sandwich once my garden comes in (without cooking it) !
 

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I used to feed EVO, and my dogs would have small, compact stools that would turn white in the sun. I was even further amazed how small and compact my dog's stools were when I switched to raw. Bailey the Dane poops are like chihuahua sized LOL
Ha ha.....our new grandbaby chihuahua's would be rabbit pellets then! :biggrin: That might be fun just to see!
 
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