[SuZQuzie]

Just curious.

Everyone says that they won't listen to this person or that professional in the real world because they lack the credentials and haven't done the research. Let's see what the level of expertise on dog nutrition is here at DFC.

What are your credentials?
Who are your mentors?
Why are they valid mentors?
What are your most commonly used sources?
Define what "research" is to you.

 

[whiteleo]

Owning animals is my resource:tongue:. Having a dog who couldn't digest carbs, and had horrible diarreah for most of her puppyhood. A older cat who has no teeth but was overweight, I thought I was feeding her a pretty good food, but since I switched her to a grainfree "GO Natural" she has lost weight and looks like a young kitten. And my many years in the horse industry where corn was the norm, hot horses where no matter what you did, they couldn't calm down.

 

[RawFedDogs]

What are your credentials?

Over 7 years of feeding a raw diet to both dogs and cats.

I attended 2 canine nutrition college courses

I have attended 3 seminars on raw feeding and one on cannine denistery

I have read books by the real experts in the field such as L. David Mech. a wild wolf researcher w/ 30 years of observing wolves in the wild. Robert Wayne has done many studies on how wolves and dogs are connected through DNA.

I have studied wolves, their behavior and diet

I have had discussions both in person and via email with experts in the field of raw feeding and nutrition.

Who are your mentors?

The main one you would have heard of is Dr. Tom Lonsdale. I have spent hours of one on one discussions with him, attended 2 of his seminars, read 2 of his books on raw feeding and have communicated via email on many occasions.

Why are they valid mentors?

Tom Lonsdale is one of the pioneers of the present day raw feeding movement. He is a vet with many years in practice and many years of studying the effects of raw feeding on dogs, cats and ferrets.

What are your most commonly used sources?

Nature. You see ... nature designs all beings to have certain needs and sees to it that those needs are met whether it be diet, environment or anything else. If not, those animals go extinct. Nature says wolves/dogs should eat meat, bones, and organs. Period. Nature go it right and millions of years of evolution prove it. It is man that steps into the picture and ruins things.

Define what "research" is to you.

Research means doing something and observing the results of that "thing". We do raw feeding research every day. We feed our dogs a raw diet and observe the results. :smile: There are tens of thousands of us doing this research and getting similar results.

Now you could answer your questions for us. :smile:

 

[DaneMama]

Credentials?

Personally the credentials that most people have in the animal nutrition department mean nothing to me because they are based off of a falsehood.

I have a Bachelor's degree (well almost...only 12 credit hours left til I graduate LOL) with an emphasis in Zoology and a Chemistry minor.

My personal experience is my biggest credential, and that of the hundreds of other case histories that I have heard on this forum as well as others and seen in person.

My mentors would definitely be:
Bill Carnes aka RFD :biggrin:
Jon Atwood :wink:
Tom Lonsdale

They are all valid mentors to me because they see the truth and are not blinded by misguided research and system, like the majority of the animal nutritionists out there. Most of those "nutritionists" are just trying to formulate a way to feed animals cheap, inappropriate diets that do more harm than good.

Research to me is using my student account at my school to do key word searches in published, peer reviewed publications and text books...AS WELL AS my own search on the internet for things that I think are correct. Not all things written in text books and peer reviewed articles are fact or even slightly correct. That is why I try and make the broadest scan for information from as many different sources as possible.

 

[jdatwood]

Let's see... my credentials.... Hmm...........

I'm a high school drop out. I have no formal education aside from that except for my A school training in the Navy. I'm a self taught entrepreneur that runs a 6 figure business from the comfort of my couch :biggrin:

When I got my first carnivore, Shiloh, I knew that the ONLY thing she should & would eat was a raw diet. Everyone around me questioned this (some still do) even though I knew in my guts it was the right thing to do.

I've spent countless days on forums, groups, reading books, articles, etc on raw feeding.

Most of all I have my life experience. All 4 of our dogs and our 5lb Kitah are raw fed. They are the epitome of a healthy animal. I know that the only thing I could do better for them would be bringing home whole prey every day (maybe that'll be my goal for next year)

My mentors would definitely be

Bill Carnes (not sure if you've met him before)
Tom Lonsdale (the godfather of raw feeding) :biggrin:
Natalie Sinton (my voice of reason... I'd be lost in life without her)

Like RFD said, I do my research daily when I feed my carnivores. Nothing beats field studies!!

I choose not to be blinded by big business "research" and "marketing". I know my animals are carnivores and feed them as such because doing anything else would be risking their lives simply for someone else's profit

I don't need science to validate what I'm doing is right. I see it in every carnivore I've helped get back to their natural diet.

 

[ruckusluvr]

nothing, nadda, zip.
i just do what
the dog food analysis web site tells me to do.

just being honest here....

BTW- do we not have a spell check feature on the forum? i cant spell or find a spell checker on here.

 

[claybuster]

Just curious.

Everyone says that they won't listen to this person or that professional in the real world because they lack the credentials and haven't done the research. Let's see what the level of expertise on dog nutrition is here at DFC.

What are your credentials?
Who are your mentors?
Why are they valid mentors?
What are your most commonly used sources?
Define what "research" is to you.

I'm not going to comment on any of the first four, but being nobody cares to comment on the last one, I will.

Define what "research" is to you.

This won't sit well with a lot of people, I realize it is very upsetting to some, but IMO there is no other option, you must experiment obviously with live animals. Some are going to get sick, some are going to die, but there really is know other way IMO. The PETA folks, ultra libs, the extremely ignorant and rude, etc., will always bitch holler and moan when it comes to this sort of thing, but reality is you have to 'break a few eggs to make an omelet'. The rude and ignorant who only care about themselves and could care less about you or your dog, cry to Kingdom come about animal testing and would rather see untested results be released rather than tested results. In other words your dog would in essence becomes the 'guinea pig', and being they only care about themselves, if your dog dies and thousands of others, too bad. They would rather see thousands of dead dogs due to untested results, as opposed to doing live animal testing sacrificing a much smaller number of dogs (that is where the ignorance and stupidity lies).
Problem is they are blindsided by emotion and fail to see the reality. They see a caged animal awaiting the hypodermic, feel overwhelmingly sorry, and fail to see the big picture this dog being tested could save the lives of hundreds of thousands down the road. The needs of the many in this case outweigh the needs of the few. Part of research IS live animal testing.

 

[DaneMama]

^^^ I don't think that is what she quite meant when she asked the question. I think she was referring to the research you do yourself to figure out what is best for him to eat. Unless you are one of the people who does clinical tests on animals.

My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed something natural? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.

 

[JayJayisme]

Credentials? Here's my credentials.

I have a Master's Degree in Business with emphasis in my studies on Marketing Communications and Sociology. Therefore I am uniquely qualified to recognize marketing bullshit when I see it and I can tell you that the pet food industry is brimming with it in their advertising and marketing programs.

The pet food industry is like the wild west and is virtually unregulated. It's a marketer's paradise. Okay, I know there are some pet food companies that really try hard to produce quality commercially processed pet foods but really, is there anything more revolting than the dog food advertising campaigns from Purina, Iams, Science Diet (Hills) and some of these other, mass-market "pet food" companies?

The most offensive thing from all of them is the way they perpetuate the notion that canines are omnivores in an attempt to justify the crap (read: cheap) fillers that go into dog food, put money in their bank accounts, and kill dogs (perhaps slowly, but it kills them nonetheless). Don't get me wrong, I am a hard core capitalist and I'm all for companies, big and small, making money. But not at the expense of the health and well being of my dogs (or me for that matter).

As they say, it takes a bullshitter to know a bullshitter and I can run with the best of them, which is precisely why I refuse to buy commercial dog food. BTW, you can run all the studies you want, create all the magic formulas and potions you can dream up, but in the corporate world it's the marketing department that decides what product goes on the shelves, not R&D. So even researchers with the best intentions rarely ever see their most desirable formulas put into production. But the marketing department will put a silver bow on the box, extrapolate some loosely related data from the R&D department, and proclaim the ingredients on the box (bag, whatever) are the end all and be all for every dog owner. It's all smoke and mirrors. But good luck with your studies. :biggrin:

 

[RawFedDogs]

My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed something natural? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.

Awwwww .... it's just CB stirring the pot. :biggrin:

 

[Guest]

My credential is that I care enough about my dogs to want them to eat the best I can offer, I care enough to come on this Forum and learn about canine nutrition. Simply being a responsible dog owner who truly cares about what her dogs eat.

It does not matter what degree I have (I do have a college degree and spent several years as a teacher of the deaf, by the way) but the fact that I want the best for my dogs is sufficient credential to be here and learn.

 

[malluver1005]

Well, I don't have credentials in animal nutrition or whatever you call it. But, I do have an Associate's Degree in Arts and I will complete my certificate for Computer Information Management this May 2010. I do the best that I can for Aspen, and he shows it. I am a very responsible dog owner and I care about my dog's health and well being. I spend many hours on the computer learning about animal nutrition and behavior. I have learned a ton since coming to this wonderful forum...that's it!!

And still learning...

 

[CorgiPaws]

What are your credentials?

Though I did not graduate college, I spent my high school years focusing on Journalism and communications. My junior year and senior years of high school I picked up R.O.P. Marketing courses, and learned the business relatively well. Knowing marketing tricks is half the game when it comes to canine nutrition as most of what's out there is from commercial pet food companies. Even if it isn't printed from the dog food company themselves, it's PAID FOR by he dog food company, and thus you have propoganda without even knowing it.

Kumpi Dog Food Comparison Chart
This is one of the most bogus dog food webpages I've come across in a while. I could spend hours on the bogus crap on there.

Who are your mentors?

My mentors aren't anything big and fancy. They aren't paid by commercial dog food companies. They are real people, some of which are on this very board
RFD has had a huge impact on the health of the animals in my house. I very muchso appreciate the experience and information that he, as well as other experienced raw feeders bring to this board.
Also, Natalie and Jon have brought so many little tips on saving money, preparing meals, etc. that have really helped me in the last two and a half months of raw feeding my dogs.

Why are they valid mentors?

Experienced raw feeders are valid mentors to me because rather than running "trials" and getting paid, they simply tell you what does and doesn't work for them. Nutrition has been made into a "science" when it does not need to be... not if it's done as natural as possible.
To me all the companies and vets who need to do trials and studies are simply trying to see how far away from nature they can get and still keep animals alive, with no regard to actual health or optimal life span. Anyone who throws exact numbers and percentages at me is disregarded as another swallowed up by "the biz" and no experienced raw feeder has yet to do that for me.
Not to mention their advice saved my Corgi, who is that one special pet that we all come across at some point in time.

What are your most commonly used sources?

Experienced feeder's personal experience. It is worth far more to me than any clinical trial or study.

Define what "research" is to you.

Good research is good observation.
Clinical trials are done under such unnatural circumstances I feel they lose their credibility.

 

[claybuster]

^^^ I don't think that is what she quite meant when she asked the question. I think she was referring to the research you do yourself to figure out what is best for him to eat. Unless you are one of the people who does clinical tests on animals.

My question in regards to your post is: Why just forget the testing and feed something natural? Why do you have to "test" and probably kill thousands of animals to get dog/cat food right? To me if you have to formulate food to that extent, you are doing the opposite of what is right. I am not saying that testing animals in clinical trials should be stopped altogether, but rather just the animal testing in regards to nutrition.

In my own research I have concluded PMR diets have sent more dogs to the emergency vet than the diet I choose to feed. My research has also indicated PMR diets have killed more pets than the diet I choose to feed? In fact, the person who started is thread is part of that research. She has had a kitten die from a PMR diet. Anything else you want to know in regards to research I've done myself?

The second part of your post I really have nothing to say about. If you feel animal testing should stop "in regards to nutrition", all I have to say is you're entitled to your opinion. It's a crap shoot, right? Let's just roll the dice and see what happens when they put products on the shelves. I can't really say I agree with your logic.

 

[rannmiller]

In my own research I have concluded PMR diets have sent more dogs to the emergency vet than the diet I choose to feed. My research has also indicated PMR diets have killed more pets than the diet I choose to feed? In fact, the person who started is thread is part of that research. She has had a kitten die from a PMR diet. Anything else you want to know in regards to research I've done myself?

Since we don't know FOR SURE that the PMR killed the kitten, I guess you can count that as part of your experience with it. I would love more personal examples of your own experience with PMR which supports any of the claims you just made. I know of hundreds of dogs and cats who have been hospitalized and/or killed by a kibble/processed diet.

I know of several dogs and cats personally who are on a PMR diet and absolutely thriving on it.

 

[claybuster]

Since we don't know FOR SURE that the PMR killed the kitten, I guess you can count that as part of your experience with it. I would love more personal examples of your own experience with PMR which supports any of the claims you just made. I know of hundreds of dogs and cats who have been hospitalized and/or killed by a kibble/processed diet.

I know of several dogs and cats personally who are on a PMR diet and absolutely thriving on it.

I know several too doing well on it...but that's about it. lol. Sorry, you're last person I want to see get upset with me, but she did ask me about MY research. I was speaking in general about the big picture of my thoughts on what research means to me, and the next thing you know I've mis-read the sentence according to some and it was really about MY personal research. I'll have to head back to the research center and check my lab notes I guess:biggrin: Until then, I know of a poor kitten passed away whos owner feels it was attributed to PMR, and one trip to the emergency vet coughing up blood and that's just on this one board. I went to the vets office to today for the once every 3 years rabies shot and distemper. The topic of raw came up and the vet mentioned it just about the most stupidest thing he ever heard of...so, if Danemamma still wants to know that is also part of MY research.

 

[rannmiller]

Haha well no offense but your vet sounds like the stupidest person I've ever heard of! Ok that's a lie, but definitely in the top 50 :biggrin:

I'm just saying, I know of a lot more members on here who have dogs who had chronic diarrhea and weight loss for months on kibble, dogs in renal failure, having seizures, vomiting, excessive shedding, dental issues, etc. who have/had kibble-fed dogs than I've heard of for people with PMR fed dogs.

And don't worry, I'm not upset with you, we're just having a good old fashioned discussion, it's what the forum is here for!

 

[claybuster]

Haha well no offense but your vet sounds like the stupidest person I've ever heard of! ...

You should have heard his reasoning (really stupid), but I shook my head like I was interested in what he had to say, and I was, but did not at all agree with his logic. However he is a Vet, a good one, from one of the top Vet Universities so for Danemamas benefit I will include what he had said as part of MY research. Getting back to animal testing and the big picture of 'research', I feel it is vital and absolute necessity. I know my guru injected enough rabbits (and maybe dogs as well; but I've only seen the charts on rabbits) with toxins (sapions). To research what amounts will cause abortions, what amount will cause cardiac arrest, what amount will cause death at what rate of time, etc., etc. All dog food manufacturers must test, unfortunately some dogs are going to be sacrificed, but the 'needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few' in this scenario.

I didn't want to get involved with the first 3-4 items in Suzie's post (too dangerous). But I figured the last one might be safe enough to dabble with; however seeing Danemamma wants to start up with 'why not feed something natural', it seems like a good time to exit.

 

[DaneMama]

I was commenting on it because you have not included the research you have done personally to conclude what you feed your dog and what you think is best. This does include what you have read about a PMR diet, but considering you don't feed it I think that the research you have done something you feel is better is correct here.

But I think we all know where you have done ALL of your research

It just seems silly to sacrifice dogs and cats trying to formulate something that is not necessary, IMHO. We all are entitled to our own opinions.

I know that the number of animals that have been sacrificed for clinical research far outweighs the number of animals that have died for no other reason than the raw meats, bones or organs they ingested. Most of the deaths on a raw diet, is because of ignorance and lack of knowledge, not because of the actual meat items they ingest.

I know the number of animals that have died because the clinical trials that big dog food companies do fail at supplying life long data. Do you have any idea how long a clinical feeding trial is in the dog food world? Months. Not years (in AAFCO regulations that is...but not all foods are AAFCO approved and have variable feeding trials, if they have ANY at all since there are no laws governing it). How is that anything close to being accurate to what is healthy for dogs/cats?

What about the number of deaths due to recalls on bad dog foods? Lets just take that number of deaths into consideration.

 

[GermanSheperdlover]

Oh no it's back, what a shame.

I have no credentials but, I do have the ability to read and search the net for answers. I love being able to hold down the left side of mouse and google and research any word or statement made by people. It really helps when tyring to find FACTS about certain ingredients. Boy, I have had some good laughs when people MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS or statements with no factual backing. :biggrin: