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Discussion Starter #1
RFD, i took your quote from the kibble section:

"Complete and balanced" is an almost meaningless term also.

Funny you should mention this, because when we told our vet we were going to be feeding raw, she expressed concern about not giving our dogs a 'complete and balanced' diet, nor all the nutrients they require, and that we wouldn't notice any ill effects in the short term, but more so long term.

We were given a pamphlet for the following supplement, which looks to be primarily for home cooked meals, but can work with raw diets also.

HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals

i have feeling i know what the general reaction will be ;) but just wanted to throw it out there.

any comments are much appreciated.
 

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hmmmm..... well, not only do you have to buy the supplement for $39.95 but you have to buy her recipe book too. Another $24.95. She says you can't just add her supplement to other recipes or a raw diet.

She also doesn't recommend or support raw feeding. I'd take a pass.

Here's a quote from her FAQ .....

Can I use HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement with my own home-made recipes?

No. HILARY'S BLEND supplement is specifically designed, using food formulation software, to balance the home-made recipes featured in the book Complete & Balanced: 101 Healthy Home-made Meals for Dogs by Hilary Watson. This supplement should only be fed in conjunction with the recipes in this book. It will not balance other recipes.
 

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any comments are much appreciated.
Quite a polished sales and promotional job, I'd say. It's amazing how people can be bamboozled into thinking they can feed their family a balanced diet but can't feed their dogs the same thing. Of course if you just add Hilary's Blend to your dog's diet, he will be perfectly healthy. HAHA Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900's are still around, aren't they? :smile:
 

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People are so brainwashed by the dog food companies and what goes into the bag they can't quite believe that a dog can get a Complete and Balanced diet with just Meat, Bones and Organs.

Its so simple and easy that there in lies the problem in peoples eyes, they think its too easy that it can't possibly be good for your dog. We always want to over complicate things, and the prey model diet is way easy as long as you try to give as much variety as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks to all, you have confirmed my initial thoughts of it being yet another cash grab, and completely unnecessary.
:smile:
 

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Wow there are so many things this woman says that are just ridiculous!

I am frequently asked "where do you stand on feeding raw?" The short answer is that I personally recommend feeding raw fruits and vegetables, but I recommend cooking meats.
But anyone with half a brain knows that dogs can't get any nutrients out of raw fruits and veggies unless they are processed (cooked or pureed) in some way first.

Or this one cracks me up too:

The most common allergens are proteins contained in meat, fish, dairy or cereal ingredients.
hahahahahaha! I think we all know how ridiculous it is to say that the most common allergens are from animal-based proteins. Yeesh! Do people actually fall for this stuff?
 

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hahahahahaha! I think we all know how ridiculous it is to say that the most common allergens are from animal-based proteins. Yeesh! Do people actually fall for this stuff?
They are the same people buying Science Diet and Iams...
I bet this woman is a hit with most vets! :biggrin:
 

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Quite a polished sales and promotional job, I'd say. It's amazing how people can be bamboozled into thinking they can feed their family a balanced diet but can't feed their dogs the same thing. Of course if you just add Hilary's Blend to your dog's diet, he will be perfectly healthy. HAHA Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900's are still around, aren't they? :smile:
I feed raw and wish all my dogs are keen on this diet. Being in food science and nutrituion myself, I would have to ask: If her recipes are perfectly nutritional and balanced, why would there be any need to balance them out??? I would pass. I know that if we feed complete raw, no need to supplement "unbalanced" meals.
 

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in the hype, she does say that 35 of her recipes can be served all-raw....

as a raw feeder, i tried supplements as i could feel RFD laughing at me :)

they got the runs because they were getting what they needed from the bone, muscle, and organs...

it's not so difficult to overdose a dog with fat soluble vitamins....which is why raw is so much easier....than any other kind of feeding.

with home cooked, on the other hand, i believe that is a whole different ballgame....
Having said that..it's not as complicated as some would have anyone believe....

since you're raw feeding and i hope it's going well....the only supp my dogs now get is salmon oil....but i'm very careful to make sure there is no soy..america soy sucks....and dogs don't need it, either....soy bad, blech....

while i might balance every day and others balance over time and others use baggies and others do whatever they do....most of us feed according to time constraints, level of OCD or anal-retentive levels LOL...and economical restraints...

i believe we all try to feed as much variety as we can....

this lady on the other hand, reminds me of jenny craig.

and chicory root....great ingredient. it's a bowel stimulant/irritant...yum...cause dogs need to have their bowels irritated....no wonder so many dogs end up with so called IBD.

chicory: the dried root of the chicory plant: used as a coffee substitute
 

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Ingredients List???

Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?

I can find what it doesn't have but what does it have in it?

If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No :eek: to me.

"graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, protein and lipid metabolism"

Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.
 
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Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?

I can find what it doesn't have but what does it have in it?

If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No :eek: to me.

"graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, protein and lipid metabolism"

Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.
it has chicory root in it....if i fed this to my dog, would i have to offer him a smoke to go along with his coffee substitute?

i know i need MY coffee in the morning...wasn't aware that dogs needed it
 

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Did any of you find where the site gives the complete ingredients list?

I can find what it doesn't have but what does it have in it?

If you read deeper into her website you'll find Hiliary Watson was the Technical Services Manager for WALTHAM Veterinary Diets or Royal Canin. She provided nutritional training and technical support to the Canadian and American WALTHAM Veterinary Sales teams. No :eek: to me.

"graduate level courses in comparative animal nutrition, protein and lipid metabolism"

Yet she's making a living off encouraging people to feed their dogs carbohydrates.
that's hilary's blend ingredient list...formerly the balancer:

Chicory root extract, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline bitartrate, zinc sulfate, iron sulfate, vitamin E succinate, sodium chloride, magnesium oxide, manganese citrate, calcium D-pantothenate, copper sulfate, niacin (vitamin B3), riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin B12, potassium iodide, vitamin D3, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), folic acid.

i think you have to buy the book for the recipes...
HILARY'S BLEND - Frequently Asked Questions
 

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I have the book and supplement

The supplement is still sealed. I am thinking of returning it.
I was finding a way to feed my dog a home-cooked meal, even though I like raw feeding.

I found out, after the fact, that this Hilary person helped formulate Royal Canin diets... had I known this, I would never have bought the supplement. The way it was presented to me was that it was a supplement I could use with raw feeding to ensure my dogs are not missing nutrients.... well, supposedly, as Hilary notes in her book, you can only use it with her diets or the minerals and vitmains will be all out of whack. ?? Hmmm...

Anyway, she is against raw feeding saying that it has high bacteria that is dangerous for your dog, but she still says some of the recipes can be used with raw meat.

I am in a dilema. When I feed my one dog raw, he gets very sluggish and doesn't seem well. Then when I switch back to kibble (Orijen) or dehydrated raw, he gets his energy back and looks so healthy after eating it for a while. So I don't know what the deal is with raw. That is why I am worried about raw alone without supplementing, however, since raw has bones and calcium, I am at a loss as to what supplement to give. What supplement is there that doesn't contain calcium? So that is why I thought Hilary's book and supplement would be good... but finding out she worked for Hills!! And yes, she told me herself in email that she works for Hills... and finding out that she helped formulate diets for Royal Canin totally scared me off her product. I'm afraid to even try it.

I like the concept of raw though, but it just isn't enough for my dog. (in my experience). I was feeding raw meats, organs, and bone at a 80%, 10% and 10% ratio. Yet it was not enough for my dog.
 

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How long were you feeding this one dog raw, that seemed to not do well? What were you feeding him? How old is he and does he have any serious medical issues?
 

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I'd be interested in hearing more about your dog that "didn't do well on raw".

Could you post a sample menu for a week or so of what exactly you were feeding?
 

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Just a little info on chicory root....

Root chicory contains volatile oils similar to those found in plants in the related genus Tanacetum which includes Tansy, and is similarly effective at eliminating intestinal worms. All parts of the plant contain these volatile oils, with the majority of the toxic components concentrated in the plant's root.

Chicory is well known for its toxicity to internal parasites. Studies indicate that ingestion of chicory by farm animals results in reduction of worm burdens, which has prompted its widespread use as a forage supplement. Only a few major companies are active in research, development, and production of chicory varieties and selections, most in New Zealand.

Chicory (especially the flower) was used as a treatment in Germany, and is recorded in many books as an ancient German treatment for everyday ailments. It is variously used as a tonic and as a treatment for gallstones, gastro-enteritis, sinus problems and cuts and bruises. (Howard M. 1987). Inulin, the dietary fiber found in Chicory, finds application in diabetes and constipation.

Chicory has demonstrated antihepatotoxic potential in animal studies.

I have fed my dogs RAW for almost a year, and one of them now has kidney problems. If you compare the actual protein and fat content of RAW to other foods (using the correct mathematical equation to compare dry and wet food) you will see that it is WAY too high in protein and fat for house dogs. Have you noticed your dogs poop is chalky? This is because they are dehydrated and lacking what they need. We cook our food because we know that it kills bacteria and parasites. It is your choice to buy into the propaganda that our house dogs should live like dogs in the wild. If you do, then why do you let your dog sleep inside? Why do you bath your dog and clip their nails? They should be let free to roam all day and be exercising for at least 6 hours of the day. Think about it..... think about how RAW food makers totally contradict themselves. Warm food is easier to digest than cold, raw foods. For optimal healthy food your pet, feeding them warm, healthy human foods that you would eat (of course eliminating foods that are dangerous to dogs) is obviously best. There is no sales gimmick there. The RAW food companies want your money just as much as the kibble companies and anyone promoting dog food/treats does. Don't be so ignorant and blind to think that the RAW food makers care about your dogs.... it all comes down to monetary gain.
Just read their sales techniques and compare them to any other dog food company..... see a similarity? Any extreme, strange diet is not good for any living creature. How could anyone argue or dispute cooking/steaming your dogs food and feeding them what you would feed yourself or a child???? Do you not trust yourself feeding a child??!! I'm pretty sure you could keep a human alive and super healthy by feeding them whole, balanced foods, while keeping foods they can't eat away. (eg. onions, avocado, chocolate, grapes, raisins....etc for dogs) They can only say "it is not balanced" hahaah! HOW ARE WE ALL ALIVE THEN?? All this crap from all dog food companies makes me LAUGH OUT LOUD IN ANGER. I know it's hard because we all love our pets and want the best for them, however what do you really think is best? Real food, the way we eat, because dogs live the way we live! Yes they do have slightly different digestion, however the main differences are that their digestion is faster, and their stomach acid is stronger. It's quite hilarious what we all have bought into. DOG FOOD IS A SCAM. RAW or KIBBLE. They all just want your money :(
 

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I have fed my dogs RAW for almost a year, and one of them now has kidney problems.
What kind of raw diet were you feeding? A prey model raw diet? Primal? BARF? Nature's Variety? Pre made "raw" foods aren't exactly what most of us here are referring to when we talk about a raw diet. We are referring more to a species-appropriate raw diet consisting of meat, bones, and organs.

If you compare the actual protein and fat content of RAW to other foods (using the correct mathematical equation to compare dry and wet food) you will see that it is WAY too high in protein and fat for house dogs.
Wrong.
The fat content varies depending on what cuts of meat you're feeding, so there is NO way you compared that, as each person's raw diet may be a little different.
The protein content of a prey model raw diet is actually 18-26% depending on what you're feeding. The "high protein" misconception is one of complete ignorance.

Have you noticed your dogs poop is chalky? This is because they are dehydrated and lacking what they need.
LOL. Silly girl.
When stools are chalky it means that the bone content is too high, and after the body takes what it needs, it passes the rest. A simple solution is to better balance the food you're feeding, by including more organs and muscle meat to balance out the bone content. It is NOT a sign of dehydration.
A prey model raw diet, or ANY raw diet aside from freeze dried or dehydrated has more moisture than any other kind of diet. Your logic here is amusing.

We cook our food because we know that it kills bacteria and parasites. It is your choice to buy into the propaganda that our house dogs should live like dogs in the wild. If you do, then why do you let your dog sleep inside? Why do you bath your dog and clip their nails? They should be let free to roam all day and be exercising for at least 6 hours of the day.
We are omnivores.
Dogs are carnivores.
We are not equipped to handle heavy bacteria loads.
Dogs are.
Internally, dog are wolves. Their digestive system nor nutritional needs have changed one bit through domestication. They are, however, pack animals, and since we have domesticated these creatures to bond with humans and live as members of the family, that is where they belong. Through domestication, we have greatly reduced their ABILITY to survive the wild and fend for themselves. It does not mean they are not still carnivores. Look at their teeth.

Think about it..... think about how RAW food makers totally contradict themselves. Warm food is easier to digest than cold, raw foods. For optimal healthy food your pet, feeding them warm, healthy human foods that you would eat (of course eliminating foods that are dangerous to dogs) is obviously best.
No pet food company puts pets before the pocket book.
Pre made raw diets are a joke, and overpriced. BUT. most of us here don't feed that. We feed prey model raw, for which there is no "company" to sell it.
Warm and cold foods don't digest differently.
raw and cooked foods do.
If I were feeding a HUMAN, I'd feed them healthy human foods. If I am feeding a DOG, I'd feed them a healthy species-appropriate food.
DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS.
Never have been, and never will be. Period.

Any extreme, strange diet is not good for any living creature.
By extreme and strange, I think "unnatural".
Such that dogs can not cook for themselves.
Nor do they naturally eat grain.
Therefore, I'd consider any cooked diet for dogs "strange and extreme." Feeding a dog what they are designed to digest, nose to tail (meat, bones, and organs) is the most natural thing we can do for our dogs and cats.

How could anyone argue or dispute cooking/steaming your dogs food and feeding them what you would feed yourself or a child????
Again, Dogs are not humans. They never have been and never will be.
Cooking kills nutrients in foods. Yes, it also kills bacteria, which humans are not designed to handle like wild animals are, and so we make that trade off. Dogs are perfectly capable of taking on raw meats, and digesting them just fine. By cooking your dog's food, you're not only killing nutrients, but making them harder for your dog's body to digest.

I'm pretty sure you could keep a human alive and super healthy by feeding them whole, balanced foods, while keeping foods they can't eat away. (eg. onions, avocado, chocolate, grapes, raisins....etc for dogs)
Feeding a HUMAN child, and feeding a DOG are two different worlds.
Apples to oranges.
I suppose you'd like to feed the same thing to a frog, a goldfish, and a butterfly, too... since a human child would thrive on it, after all.

All this crap from all dog food companies makes me LAUGH OUT LOUD IN ANGER.
Ditto on that.
However, you're kind of having the same effect.......


Real food, the way we eat, because dogs live the way we live!
My dogs and I like to sleep in my bed. We also like to go for walks. We even like to play games together.
This says NOTHING of our nutritional and dietary needs being the same.
Just because they can LIVE like we do through domestication, does NOT make their nutritional needs the same as ours.
Which in case you haven't caught on yet: DOGS are not HUMANS. Never have been, and never will be.

Yes they do have slightly different digestion, however the main differences are that their digestion is faster, and their stomach acid is stronger.
Did it ever occur to you that the differences in their systems are what makes them capable of digesting raw foods? Just a thought. Because, you know, dog aren't humans and all...

DOG FOOD IS A SCAM. RAW or KIBBLE. They all just want your money :(
Now this is something we can agree on.
However, COOKING for your dogs is silly, too. Better than commercial food, sure... but the logic is still greatly lacking in my book.


OH! And :welcome: to DFC, kellybelly. I'm glad you came to join us, you have a lot to learn, and I'm sure this is the place for it.
 
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