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Discussion Starter #1
I am looking for a little advice....

We have a 10 year old Alaskan Husky who was on Wellness Core Weight Control but after about 8 months was still not loosing any weight we recently switched her to Welness Super 5 - Healthy Weight. Is this a good choice? She is about 70lbs and should likely be in 50-55lbs range. Is this a good choice for her?


We are also getting a Chesapeake Bay Retriever pup (male) and wondering what food would be a good choice for him?




Thanks.
 

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We have a 10 year old Alaskan Husky who was on Wellness Core Weight Control but after about 8 months was still not loosing any weight we recently switched her to Welness Super 5 - Healthy Weight. Is this a good choice?
The best and easiest choice for weight loss is feed less and exercise more. Sometimes it can be difficult to give enough exercise to a 10yo dog. In that case, feed A LOT less.

She is about 70lbs and should likely be in 50-55lbs range. Is this a good choice for her?
In that case, I would feed her about half what you are feeding now.

We are also getting a Chesapeake Bay Retriever pup (male) and wondering what food would be a good choice for him?
I don't feed kibble so I can't give you a brand. A prey model raw diet is best for any dog.

ETA: Don't depend on changing brands of food to cause your dog to loose weight.
 

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Wellness Core worked well for helping my dog lose weight, but I had to exercise extreme portion control and implement a lot of exercise into her routine. It was probably more that than the brand, but at the same time, she did way better on Core than Nutro Ultra, so yeah.

As far as feeding any dog goes, get the food that has the most meat and the least amount of fruits, veggies, and grains in it. Evo and Orijen and Blue Wilderness are good for this. However, the only one of those that has a puppy formula is Orijen.

Rawfeddogs is right though, prey model raw is the best food for almost any dog and might help your older dog lose weight easier, but that's your personal decision.
 

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I have a 12 year old Lhasa and an 8 month old Husky/Chow puppy which are close in the age range of your dogs. My puppy is eating Orijen puppy now and doing very well on it. He gets 2 cups a day (at 70 pounds) and some days he eats it all and some days he lets it sit there - I just free feed my dogs and they eat when they are hungry but they don't get more then what they are allowed. It has kept him at a really good weight with tons of energy. The 12 year old eats Innova Senior Plus since she is allergic to the salmon in Orijen. She has only been on the Innova a month and is doing wonderful on it. She has a ton of energy, can walk much farther then she used to, and actually runs and plays all over the yard. Previously she was on Natures Recipe Venison for allergies and I think the change to Innova Senior Plus has helped her a lot. She gets a fourth cup a day free fed. They both get a bit of all meat canned food or real meat morning and night for extra meat.
Hope that helps. I'm real happy with those two brands for those ages.
 

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Fromm or Orijen

Hi,

I spokle with a local natural pet food shop and they recomened Fromm large breed puppy and serior for or husky.... Has any one had any experience with these? I had never really heard of them.

The other one that seems to keep comming up is Orijen, any comments?
 

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As far as the weight loss, have you tried reducing portion size? I've had problems with my dogs being too chubby, and have had to cut portions back. It's hard to do, but it can be necessary to get that weight-loss. If you have a hard time cutting her back, have you tried mixing in green beans.
 

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quote:
Weight reduction and weight and management have become central areas of concern to dog owners in recent years as the number of obese dogs as escalated. Big Industry (the large manufacturer of dog food) and veterinarians are quick to blame pet owners for the problem. Big Industry claims that obesity is caused by overfeeding, overindulgence with treats or inadequate amounts of exercise.
Based on these assumptions, Big Industry has flooded the market with a multitude of high-fibre, high carbohydrate, low-quality weight reduction roducts which bring about weight loss by drastically lowering the dog's intake of available calories and nutrients. the high level of fibre included in these products, according to the Big Industry, serves a dual purposes, it induces a feeling of fullness, while it reduces nutrients availability. These solutions to the problem of obesity can aggravate the already serious metabolic disorders potentially causing untold damage to dogs.
It is a scientific fact that dogs consume only the amount of food needed to deliver the number of calories they require. Calories are the body's fuel, they needed to fuel growth and reproduction. Animals must receive the number of calories they require to run all of their bodily functions and to fuel the production of all of its tissues and processes. When energy is undersupplied in a ration, the body will use the energy reserved for tissue-building to make up for the shortfall, potentially damaging the body.
A self-regulating mechanism prevents dogs from ingesting more calories than they require over the long-haul. Based on these incontestable scientific facts, how can dogs become obese as a result of the over ingestion of calories. Obviously, they cannot.
It is not your fault. It is the fault of the diet. Cutting back on the ration (undersupplying nutrients) and exercise is not necessarily your best approach.
What you can do is deliver a high quality ration that is equal to or even has more calories than your current diet, so your dog gets what in needs from a caloric standpoint, just in lesser amounts. Quoting an old TV commercial, you can have 1 bowl or Total or 10 bowls of "X".

source: Dogs Get Obese?

My dog gets 800 cals per cup (for six years). She is as thin as a rail. Dogs do not get fat from too many calories. They get fat due to improperly structured diets. It is not your fault. Often the owner is blamed with not enough exercise, too many fridge treats, etc...just another way of how the industry protects its own interests so the can continue to sell the profitable high fiber diets, instead of delivering more cals through meats and fats.

Good luck with your dog!
Charlie
 

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My dogs get 800 cals per cup, AND I FREE FEED. They eat what they need and leave the rest in the bowls. Food and water is available 24/7. When I notice the food bowl is empty I replenish, no timeframe.
 

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I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. The other day my dog managed to get ahold of a 10 lbs bag of raw chicken leg quarters and ate the entire thing. While she didn't die from this event, you could certainly tell she was uncomfortable. Her stomach was horribly expanded, she was whining (much like people do after over eating), and had the most tremendous gas and burps for two days. And you cannot possibly try to tell me that raw chicken wasn't nutritious enough for her to register her calories and stop eating. She's an eater, always has been, always will be. If I had $80 to spend on a bag of Abady to lay out for her to graze on at will, I'm guessing it would be gone in a day or so with the same results as her over eating of chicken. If you'd like to send me a bag of Abady for this experience, I'd be more than happy to try it out for you.

I will, however, agree that weight control foods put out by pet food manufacturers are low-quality products and a marketing gimmick meant to under nourish our pets, and that most of the time, even if you fed an obese lab only 1/4 cup of Pedigree dog food/day, he would probably still have a very hard time losing weight since he'd still be getting nothing but garbage to digest. The same garbage that caused the problems in the first place.

It'd be like eating nothing but french fries your whole life and getting fat off them. Then when you tried to lose weight you just ate smaller amounts of french fries, but still only french fries. You'd have a very hard time losing weight in a healthy and efficient manner.
 

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I will have to agree with Rannmiller. I have always free fed my Chows and Samoyeds, and they self regulated their meals and maintained perfectly healthy weights. My one and only Labrador could never be free fed. She would inhale any and all food she could find, including items that barely qualified as food! I think a lot depends on the dog and the breed, plus the food they encounter.
 

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I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
I respect your thoughts.


If I had $80 to spend on a bag of Abady to lay out for her to graze on at will, I'm guessing it would be gone in a day or so with the same results as her over eating of chicken.
A few things here: My feed does not come in a bag, it comes in a box and it costs around $65 (depends on where you shop, 40-lb classic). The term "graze" here is I think is an implication there is something omnivore going on in this box of feed? Well, I want you to know, Abady is about carnivore feeding, species appropriate feeding, and there is no need to make any insinuations there is an omnivore approach to the products. I have to respectfully disagree with you about Orijen being some sort of great product.
IMO it is not. That goes for EVO as well. These are not products for my dog,
however, you and RFD both have given them your thumbs up and the irony here is, YOU'RE BOTH RAW FEEDERS.

OK, lets break it down.

Orijen and EVO, both boast 42% protein. I'm not buying into those numbers, sorry. Orijen open admits it has 30% fruits and vegetables. EVO hits you with the omnivore buffet, everything from potatoes and cranberry dust, and that is supposed to be 'when you can't feed raw'. Try not fall victim to catchy marketing and slick advertising, because anyone can plainly see by the ingredients list, these feeds are heavily influenced with species inappropriate ingredients.

Let's take a look at Abady. Oh, it has white rice. A non-allergenic ingredient.
Not to be confused with brown rice, which contains gluten protein. Where's the rest of it, where is that buffet of inappropriate ingredients. It's not there.
White rice....economics...helps bring down costs, but it is about delivering animal source proteins. I don't want 21% animal source, and 21% whatever else to total 42% protein and still end up with an omnivore diet...no thank you!

So, if you're looking to save a few bucks and feed species appropriate, my box is lasting me 3 months at $65. Do the math! (50-lbs: 37 pound Field Setter and the Yorkie at 13 lbs)

I also know my diet has got everything in it and I'm not missing anything like some might be doing with raw. Ever walk down your Wal-Mart and wonder if you're missing something in your dogs diet?

Now about that science you’re not buying into (about dogs regulating their caloric intake). Don’t forget, this is over the long haul, not a binge feed.
 

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Hehe, I don't think rannmiller need my help here but since my name was mentioned I think I can add to this also. :smile:

The term "graze" here is I think is an implication there is something omnivore going on in this box of feed? Well, I want you to know, Abady is about carnivore feeding, species appropriate feeding, and there is no need to make any insinuations there is an omnivore approach to the products.
Since Abady claims 22.6% carbs, that by itself makes it something omnivore going on in your box of feed. Carbs are not part of a carnivore diet. BTW: by my count there are around 36% carb in that box. I'm not buying Abady's numbers. The place on the page where thiey list 22.6% is on an advertisement panel which doesn't have to be 100% accurate.

I have to respectfully disagree with you about Orijen being some sort of great product. IMO it is not. That goes for EVO as well. These are not products for my dog, however, you and RFD both have given them your thumbs up and the irony here is, YOU'RE BOTH RAW FEEDERS.
Hehe, I'm not getting into that. I don't think any of them are any good. A few are less bad. :smile:

Try not fall victim to catchy marketing and slick advertising, because anyone can plainly see by the ingredients list, these feeds are heavily influenced with species inappropriate ingredients.
I agree but Abady does exactly the same thing. None of them are angels.

Let's take a look at Abady. Oh, it has white rice. A non-allergenic ingredient.
Not to be confused with brown rice, which contains gluten protein. Where's the rest of it, where is that buffet of inappropriate ingredients.
You know, I don't know that but I do know they have 22.6% or 36% carbs depending on whose numbers you believe. Thats an awful lot of rice. EVO claims 11.42% carbs (I measure 37%). That tells me there are less inappropriate total ingredients in EVO even though it has a greater number if indivual items.

I don't want 21% animal source, and 21% whatever else to total 42% protein and still end up with an omnivore diet...no thank you!
I don't know where you get those numbers. I THINK I read on an EVO page long time ago that 90% or 95% of their protein was animal based. I can't remember for sure and may be totally mistaken. I just quickly scanned a couple of EVO pages and couldn't find it.

I also know my diet has got everything in it and I'm not missing anything like some might be doing with raw.
Don't be so sure. Cooking kills A LOT of nutrients. Why do you think dog food companies add so many artificial nutriends into their food? It's because they were cooked out in the manufacturing process. I just counted 32 nutrients (chemicals) added to your Abady product. Did they replace all that was lost? Are you sure?

You know hundreds if not thousands of cats died when people first started feeding kibble to them. It seems the cat food companies didn't know they needed to add taurine into cat food. What do the dog food companies not know about ingredients they aren't adding?

The prey model raw diet has proven itself over millions of years of evolution. There are no nutrients missing. If there was, dogs/wolves would be extinct by now.

Ever walk down your Wal-Mart and wonder if you're missing something in your dogs diet?
Not for a second. :smile:
 

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Claybuster, I believe you failed to read all the middle parts of my post about my dog eating 10 lbs of raw chicken in one sitting.

When I said "graze" I certainly did not mean to imply any sort of omnivore tendencies of feeding on grass, I meant "to eat small portions of food, as appetizers or the like, in place of a full-sized meal or to snack during the course of the day in place of regular meals" to quote the dictionary. As in free-feeding.

I know Abady makes a decent food, after hearing your arguments and explanations for it, I see now and admit that my initial judgment of the product was inaccurate. However, I'm not really a huge fan of any commercial/cooked dog food out there.

That being said, I also forgot that it came in a box, rather than bag (not that that is very pertinent to the argument I was making, but ok), so if you'd prefer to send me a $65 box of Abady and I'll leave it open for my lab mix/over-indulger and see if she doesn't gorge herself on a regular basis, then you'd really make a believer out of me.

The main reason I'm an advocate for Orijen is more it's availability and larger quantities of animal based proteins than you find the majority of commercial dog foods. Evo, as I have already said somewhere else on this forum, has taken a serious quality dive in reference to their "red meat" line. Their regular lines are still decent, but I think their ingredients aren't what they used to be (or whatever I think they used to be, whether they actually were that or not hehehe). Either way, Evo and Orijen are leaps and bounds ahead of most other dog foods on the market and more available than Abady from what I gather.

Again, please feel free to inform me otherwise.
 

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I agree but Abady does exactly the same thing. None of them are angels.
White rice...that's it. Just look at those other two kibbles I mentioned and you will see. What do you want to see further down the line...undefatted beef liver or sweet potatoes, Menhaden oil or cranberry?

Yes, Abady has some carbs but they keep it low. That's is what makes a carnivore approach to feeding, not high carbs. The other two kibbles I mentioned replace grain fiber with plant fiber yielding no real benefit, still getting a ton of fiber.

That tells me there are less inappropriate total ingredients in EVO even though it has a greater number if indivual items.
What??? OK, look at it this way, how much do you think these kibbles would cost if they were really 42% animal source proteins? More than what I am feeding, correct? I think my feed costs a bit more because my 30% protein is pretty much all animal source, that is where the costs come in, not with sun-cured alfalpha sprouts.

I don't know where you get those numbers. I THINK I read on an EVO page long time ago that 90% or 95% of their protein was animal based. I can't remember for sure and may be totally mistaken. I just quickly scanned a couple of EVO pages and couldn't find it.
My 21% and 21% for a total of 42 was hypothetical, but probably close to being accurate...otherwise these feeds would cost more in theory, but they do not (because it smoke and mirrors). You were probably looking at TO when you read 90-95%, another omnivore directed feed.

Don't be so sure. Cooking kills A LOT of nutrients. Why do you think dog food companies add so many artificial nutriends into their food? It's because they were cooked out in the manufacturing process. I just counted 32 nutrients (chemicals) added to your Abady product. Did they replace all that was lost? Are you sure?
Abady uses independent processing of ingredients. Grains DO NOT dictate how the ration is made.

Abady: Only the Abady Company has successfully addressed these two critically important issues by creating a special process that does not penalize nutrition while improving energy production. It includes more animal fat and oils and fewer carbohydrates. Fresh animal tissue is processed once. The animal meals are also processed only once, as are fats and oils, unlike kibble in which animal meals are processed twice. Importantly in Abady granular products the vitamins are never exposed to heat or pressure. Dogs do not have a requirement for carbohydrates and generally fare better with lower levels. Only the Abady Company’s special process permits the levels of each ingredient to be included independently, allowing an increase in fats, an increase in protein, and a decrease in carbohydrates according to the requirements of that formula. In Abady granular most of the grains are fully processed, independently of most of the TBN content. Both grains and tissue building nutrients are blended together at the end of the process, (after each has been appropriately processed), not at the beginning.
The prey model raw diet has proven itself over millions of years of evolution. There are no nutrients missing. If there was, dogs/wolves would be extinct by now.
I don't think you are feeding a prey model raw diet. I think you might be confused about something here, but please correct me if I am wrong.

A prey model raw diet, or whole prey model, refers to a specific group of folks
who feed their dogs live animals. Remember RFD the story you mentioned about your cats ripping up a rabbit in the bathroom. That IS a perfect example of what prey model raw feeding is all about, and rabbits are the preferred choice because the are cheap to purchase and easily obtainable.
Prey model feeding the dogs does all the work, you just supply the animal. They make the kill (the dogs), they get the meat and bone off, etc. This is a practice that has been (whole prey feeding) a growing trend over the past 10 years. But what I think is most important here, whole prey feeding starts with a giving your dog a live or dead (whole) animal. Chickens can be used, rabbits, any type of small animal.

Now, that concept of raw feeding (whole prey) is completely different than shopping at the butcher or supermarket for commercially prepared meats. Therefore, whole prey method or model should not be confused with feeding a raw diet of commercially prepared meats. It is not the same thing. You and ramiller feed a home prepared raw fed diet, but are not doing whole prey.
Whole prey feeders IMO is rawus maximus. They are getting it right, for it is all in there and they will eat what they need, organ meat, fats, tissue, and bone. Most raw feeders unfortunately may not be getting it right and because they have to put together the percentages. I would assume, to be getting it right, one has to include the fats and organs everyday in proper percentages. Once a week with some organ meat is not going to cut the mustard, you need and should be right everyday with the percentages. That would be properly structured raw diet, and whole prey feeders (real whole prey feeders) can't miss in that respect. I am not knocking raw feed home diets by any means, I'm just saying it is not the same as whole prey, and percentages need to be accurate.
 

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Claybuster, I believe you failed to read all the middle parts of my post about my dog eating 10 lbs of raw chicken in one sitting.

When I said "graze" I certainly did not mean to imply any sort of omnivore tendencies of feeding on grass, I meant "to eat small portions of food, as appetizers or the like, in place of a full-sized meal or to snack during the course of the day in place of regular meals" to quote the dictionary. As in free-feeding.
I always read everything you have to say:wink:

I wasn't sure about the "graze" thing myself but figured go for it anyway just in case there was something there.

I think your dog saw an opportunity and seized the moment. But I think he would have to reach a point in time where he must stop! Try laying out 10-lbs every day for a week as an experiment as see what happens. just kidding.

Charlie
 

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White rice...that's it. Just look at those other two kibbles I mentioned and you will see. What do you want to see further down the line...undefatted beef liver or sweet potatoes, Menhaden oil or cranberry?[
All 3 brands have approximately the same amount of carbs. It doesn't really matter whether the carbs come from white rice or a mixture of other plants. They are still speicies inappropriate and by my measure all 3 of the brands are relatively low in carbs and they have about the same amount. So by that measure, the 3 brands are pretty equal.

Yes, Abady has some carbs but they keep it low. That's is what makes a carnivore approach to feeding, not high carbs.
The carnivore approach to feeding is NO carbs. :smile:

The other two kibbles I mentioned replace grain fiber with plant fiber yielding no real benefit, still getting a ton of fiber.
I don't see any difference between the 3. If you must feed kibble, feeding one of these brands is the less bad way to go. I don't see any of the 3 as being superior to the other.

What??? OK, look at it this way, how much do you think these kibbles would cost if they were really 42% animal source proteins? More than what I am feeding, correct? I think my feed costs a bit more because my 30% protein is pretty much all animal source, that is where the costs come in, not with sun-cured alfalpha sprouts.
We can argue this point forever. Unfortunately there is no way to find out what percent of protein is from animals and plants. I have never been able to assertain this other than by conjecture.

My 21% and 21% for a total of 42 was hypothetical, but probably close to being accurate...otherwise these feeds would cost more in theory, but they do not (because it smoke and mirrors).
Hehehehehe ... in a discussion like this you can't just pull numbers out of thin air. You gotta have some kind of basis for them.

You were probably looking at TO when you read 90-95%, another omnivore directed feed.
Thats possible, I can't remember for sure where I read it.

Abady uses independent processing of ingredients. Grains DO NOT dictate how the ration is made.
They still cook it. Cooking destroys nutrition.

Abady: Only the Abady Company has successfully addressed these two critically important issues by creating a special process that does not penalize nutrition while improving energy production. ...<<< cut a bunch of this out for brevity.>>>
Remember in a previous post in this thread you cautioned about believing company marketing hype.

I don't think you are feeding a prey model raw diet. I think you might be confused about something here, but please correct me if I am wrong.
You are wrong. :smile:

Remember RFD the story you mentioned about your cats ripping up a rabbit in the bathroom.
My dogs and cats pretty regularly catch and kill wild critters around here. I am often finding 1/2 squrrels or 1/2 rabbits laying around in the yard. I assume the cats killed those because the dogs would eat the whole thing. I have also seen dogs steal a kill from cats.

That IS a perfect example of what prey model raw feeding is all about, and rabbits are the preferred choice because the are cheap to purchase and easily obtainable.
Evidently they are pretty easily caught also. :smile:

Prey model feeding the dogs does all the work, you just supply the animal. They make the kill (the dogs), they get the meat and bone off, etc. This is a practice that has been (whole prey feeding) a growing trend over the past 10 years. But what I think is most important here, whole prey feeding starts with a giving your dog a live or dead (whole) animal. Chickens can be used, rabbits, any type of small animal.
Here is where we part ways. You see, in my mind, chicken muscle is chicken muscle regardless of where on the body it's located. Chicken fat is chicken fat regardless of where on the body it's located. Chicken bone is chicken bone regardless of where on the body it's located. Nutritionally it makes no difference if you feed no part of the chicken except the leg quarters and organs or if you feed a whole chicken. The same nutrition is consumed. This is the same with all the other prey animals also.

Now, that concept of raw feeding (whole prey) is completely different than shopping at the butcher or supermarket for commercially prepared meats.
As per my above paragraph, I don't see a difference.

Therefore, whole prey method or model should not be confused with feeding a raw diet of commercially prepared meats. It is not the same thing.
Tell me the difference nutritionally. You might inject that the commercial raised prey animals are fed differently and that may or may not make a nutritional difference in the meat. Either way I think the difference is negligible.

You and ramiller feed a home prepared raw fed diet, but are not doing whole prey.
Nutritionally there is so little difference as to make no difference.

Whole prey feeders IMO is rawus maximus.
Thats the reason we call it "PREY MODEL" feeding and not whole prey feeding. :smile:

Most raw feeders unfortunately may not be getting it right and because they have to put together the percentages. I would assume, to be getting it right, one has to include the fats and organs everyday in proper percentages.
That couldn't be further from the truth. In the first place, exact percentages are baloney. No one and no animal even knows that proper percentages are. I know of no one who measures all the nutrients in their own diet every day. Exactly how much protein do you eat each day? How much should you eat? How many carbs? How much fat? How much calcium to you take in each day? How much phosporus? How much of each of the vitamins? You see what I mean? Not only is it impossible to measure this stuff, even if you could, putting together a diet with exactly the right percentages would be impossible.

Regardless of the dog food company marketing hype, its not necessary to feed a complete and balanced diet every meal. Balance over time. You don't need every single nutrient in the world every single day of your life. If you did there would be no human or animal life on earth. BTW: Do you know how dog food companies prove their food is balanced according to AAFCO standards?

Once a week with some organ meat is not going to cut the mustard, you need and should be right everyday with the percentages.
Marketing hype ... even your own personal diet falls far short of this. What are the right percentages? Each prey animal has different percentages of nutrients. Thats the reason variety is important in a prey model diet. For example the muscle meat of a cow does not contain the same nutrients as the muscle meat of a chicken or any other animal. They all contain different percentages of nutrients.

That would be properly structured raw diet, and whole prey feeders (real whole prey feeders) can't miss in that respect. I am not knocking raw feed home diets by any means, I'm just saying it is not the same as whole prey, and percentages need to be accurate.
Again, we are not claiming to be feeding "whole prey" raw diets. We feed a PREY MODEL diet and our dogs are healthy.
 

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Most raw feeders unfortunately may not be getting it right and because they have to put together the percentages. I would assume, to be getting it right, one has to include the fats and organs everyday in proper percentages. Once a week with some organ meat is not going to cut the mustard, you need and should be right everyday with the percentages. That would be properly structured raw diet, and whole prey feeders (real whole prey feeders) can't miss in that respect.
This is like saying that if you were really busy one day and only had time to eat a banana, a hot dog, and brownie, you would be malnourished. As RFD said, we don't all eat perfectly balanced FDA approved food pyramid diets every single day. The point is that you get the nutrients in your diet to keep you healthy over the long run.

That being said, dogs/wolves in the wild don't get muscle meat, fat, and organs every day/every time they make a kill. They usually kill the prey, eat the organs, the wolves lower on the totem poll are probably lucky to get any organ meat, and then eat muscle meat and bone off of the carcass every day until the animal is mostly gone. How long does that take? A few days? A week? This means these wolves are getting organ meat in their diet probably about once a week, just like my dogs do.

Now the raw fed dogs you referred to who get whole prey every day probably get organs every single day, but that is out of a smaller animal too, so their organs aren't as large, so they don't yield as large a quantity of organ meat as larger prey does. So inevitably, these dogs are getting smaller amounts of organ meat in these smaller animals, and it still probably balances out to being approximately 20% of their diet, just like my dogs get.

Funny how things balance out like that.
 

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OK, I'll give my two cents.

First, I will agree that there is a difference between feeding a true prey model raw diet than feeding prey model as RFD and Ran do. The primary differences, nutritionally speaking, are the consumption of organs and glands not readily available that do include important nutrients that are not in meat, bone and readily available organs.

Rice, or any carb source, is not an appropriate ingredient for dogs or cats. Feeding such does not constitute feeding either a species appropriate diet regardless of the carb source or how much is in it. Obviously, if you're feeding carbs, the less the better.

In regards to which is better to have in a pet's food, rice or potato or any other, there are some differences. First, using potato allows a manufacturer to use less of the carb source and more meat protein when manufacturing the food. Second, some carb sources are higher in phytates than others. Phytates can and do bind to particular minerals and block the uptake of said minerals. There is also a difference in the protein content of different carb sources and this makes a difference when trying to interpret the label information provided. Obviously, the carb sources higher in protein content will mislead buyers because they are led to believe the protein in a food is derived from meat sources.

Just like with us, yes, balance over time can work just fine. Keep in mind, though, that certain nutrients work together. Calcium and phosphorus, for example, are absorbed and utilized based upon the balance of the consumption of both.

Dog food manufacturers do prove their food is nutritionally adequate in one and/or two ways: First is lab testing that shows nutrient levels. If a food is manufactured in accordance to, and labeled as such, nutrient profiles established by AAFCO, it must test so. In this aspect, feeds need to be tested for nutritional adequacy or the recipe used must be close enough to another formula that manufacturer makes that has tested to be nutritionally balanced and complete. The second way is through feeding trials. Feeding trials, however, IMHO, are not adequate as the rules and allowed results are very lenient and don't prove much other than that a certain number of dogs didn't die, lose drastic, unhealthy amounts of weight or become ill from the food in the short period the testing was conducted.

No offense, but Abaday is not a species appropriate diet any more than any kibble is. Is it better than some? Of course it is. Is it "species appropriate"? Not with it being processed and containing rice. You are happy with it, your dog is doing well on it, and honestly, that's what matters most.
 

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All 3 brands have approximately the same amount of carbs. It doesn't really matter whether the carbs come from white rice or a mixture of other plants. They are still speicies inappropriate and by my measure all 3 of the brands are relatively low in carbs and they have about the same amount. So by that measure, the 3 brands are pretty equal.

They are not equal by any means and that is where you're not looking at the big picture. Plant matter should be avoided in carnivore feeding, regardless when it comes to lower carb content of these feeds. What matters about carbs is lower is better, but the ingredients do count. Without even looking at these 2 kibbles I mentioned (EVO and Orijen), I know I will find ingredients like: yucca, garlic, flaxseed, alfalfa, tomato pumice, potatoes (several varieties), kelp (sun cured seaweed), etc., etc. It does make a difference when it comes to ingredients. Those ingredients follow an omnivore approach to feeding. Another factor is delivering poisons at sub-lethal does over the long-term when it comes to certain plant matter. It is best to be avoided and not suitable for feeding of carnivores.

I know why Abady uses white rice. It is the perfect ingredients in terms of “economics” because it is a non-allergen (despite what some health care practitioners would lead you to believe; they tried that with natural corn as well), gluten protein off the hull removed, lower carb and fiber when compared to brown rice (with the hull), and yes it is an expensive ingredients for manufacturers to purchase. The economics comes to the cost the consumer can bear if they want to feed well. The carnivore approach is behind theory of what is best for dogs, avoidance of plant matter as fiber, avoidance of gluten source proteins, a focus on delivering animal source proteins, low carb, low fiber, and avoidance of expansion type fibers (beet pulp, tomato pumice, cellulose, etc.). Abady conforms to the principles in carnivore feeding, the only manufacturer to do so. Again, the feeds are by no means equal.


Here is where we part ways. You see, in my mind, chicken muscle is chicken muscle regardless of where on the body it's located. Chicken fat is chicken fat regardless of where on the body it's located. Chicken bone is chicken bone regardless of where on the body it's located. Nutritionally it makes no difference if you feed no part of the chicken except the leg quarters and organs or if you feed a whole chicken. The same nutrition is consumed. This is the same with all the other prey animals also.
I am glad you mentioned that, so you can endorse an ingredient like chicken by-product meal. Whole Prey, and those who follow that model, are not squeamish about ingredients like: brain, tongue, eyeballs, skull (bone), and the tissue off the head. Not squeamish about liver, intestine, heart, lung, and even feet, because that IS following Whole Prey feeding. Like you said, the same nutrition is consumed. Chicken by-product meal is an excellent ingredient for dog food and manufacturers (intelligent ones) can get three times as much for X amount of dollars as compared to muscle meat. Again, the focus is about carnivore feeding and delivering animal source proteins, regardless of what this site will profess (green dogs review) about chicken by-product meal and Abady granular. At least a moderator here will admit for a standpoint of nutrition it doesn’t make a bit of difference what part of the animal the meat comes from.

Again, we are not claiming to be feeding "whole prey" raw diets. We feed a PREY MODEL diet and our dogs are healthy.
If following a model of Whole Prey, chicken by-product meal gets a big thumbs up, and yes it keeps dogs very healthy!

Regardless of the dog food company marketing hype, its not necessary to feed a complete and balanced diet every meal. Balance over time. You don't need every single nutrient in the world every single day of your life. If you did there would be no human or animal life on earth. BTW: Do you know how dog food companies prove their food is balanced according to AAFCO standards?
All I know about AAFCO is they have no enforcement power and probably connected with the big food manufacturers. Their statements about CBPM and how they word it is a complete joke. Whether or not it makes a difference a ration is complete and balanced every single solitary day, I would rather see it that way, correct all the time. What AAFCO I’m sure fails to see about CBPM and Animal Fat, NO dog food can be adequate without those two when it comes to carnivore nutrition. Diets for omnivores would be a different story and I’m sure AAFCO is beautifully descriptive when it comes to those type of ingredients.
 
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