Dog Food Chat banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Recently, Rosie barks and tries to lunge at cars driving by when we go on our walks. :confused:

It only happens on our street as we go to the park (i.e. when the car drives *right* by) - once we are in the park, we walk on a path through the woods, then for a little while, another path alongside a parkway. That separation of maybe 20 feet or so from the parkway is sufficient such that she ignores the cars going by and the barking/lunging is not a problem.

When she does bark/lunge, it is potentially very dangerous. I hold her leash very tightly so that she can't get anywhere near the car. I worry, though, that one of these days my grip will slip, or that she'll do it when one of the kids is walking her. She only weighs 14 lbs, but still.

She gets 3+ walks per day, so the potential for something bad happening is high enough that it worries me.

How can I break her of this bad habit?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,965 Posts
We live out in the "country" and dont' have any sidewalks so Rocky has learned that when cars come by he has to stop and sit next to me on the grassy shoulder so we dont' get run over. Mostly I taught him this so that if he ever got loose, he would hopefully know enough to get over by the ditch when cars came by. It took some time but it wasnt' that hard to teach him.
We always carry a treat bag and a clicker with us on a walk so we can teach him new things (Like dont' chase cats!). When a car would start up the road and we'd first hear it , we would say "Rocky, car" and we would pull him over to the side of the road and put him in a sit position and click the clicker. Then he'd get a treat. ( He also has to "watch Mama" until the car passes. "Watch Mama" is one command that all my dogs learn and they learn it really easy. It keeps their attention on you and away from all distractions.) As soon as the car passes, we say "okay" and continue on the walk. It didnt' happen overnight and if it's a busy time it seems like we dont' get to walk very far without stopping every ten feet for a sit and a treat........but now he has learned perfectly to get off the road and sit whenever a car or truck comes by. And I don't worry that he's going to get run over. Sometimes I forget and suddenly I look down and realize that he is sitting there waiting for the car to pass and I'm still walking!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Keep your eyes and ears open - when a car is approaching, use this time to work on your commands with your dog, using juicy and highly valuable treats. Over time, Rosie will learn to keep her attention fixed on you.

The key is to distract the behaviour before it starts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,359 Posts
When I was young, a nieghbor had a dog who chased cars. They set it up where a car would drive down the street and they squirted the dog with the garden hose. May be an old fashion idea, but with enough of this his golden stopped doing this altogether. You could even have somoen sit on the passenger side with a bucket of water! I don't know what resources you have with being able to do somehting like this but it should work. My dogs will begin barking and I have a small squirt bottle of pure H2O and all I now actually say to them is I'm getting the water. And I have 2 labs who will readily jump into any patch of water so with just squirting them with a small squirt bottle they will stop barking! Hope you find a trick that works well for you and your pup! Would hate to see the poor thing get hurt!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
Recently, Rosie barks and tries to lunge at cars driving by when we go on our walks. :confused:

It only happens on our street as we go to the park (i.e. when the car drives *right* by) - once we are in the park, we walk on a path through the woods, then for a little while, another path alongside a parkway. That separation of maybe 20 feet or so from the parkway is sufficient such that she ignores the cars going by and the barking/lunging is not a problem.

When she does bark/lunge, it is potentially very dangerous. I hold her leash very tightly so that she can't get anywhere near the car. I worry, though, that one of these days my grip will slip, or that she'll do it when one of the kids is walking her. She only weighs 14 lbs, but still.

She gets 3+ walks per day, so the potential for something bad happening is high enough that it worries me.

How can I break her of this bad habit?
I would suggest a chain or prong collar. When she starts to lunge, a sharp tug and an equally sharp "no!" or "leave it!" should let her know that action is not acceptable. Then quickly lead her away from the stimulus that she is reacting to. Then praise & reward when she returns to "normal". Repeat every time she presents this bad habit, and eventually she will learn to ignore the cars when you tell her to "leave it".

Now before everyone gets all bent out of shape about a chain or prong collar, we have been in obedience for at least a year with our GSP and I can assure you that the place where we train would not recommend anything that they felt harmed a dog. So the fact that they tell people to use them in training is testament to the fact that they are a useful training tool.

JMHO,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
I would suggest a chain or prong collar. When she starts to lunge, a sharp tug and an equally sharp "no!" or "leave it!" should let her know that action is not acceptable.
It also teaches her that she cannot trust you to look after her welfare and you will not hesitate to do bad things to her. What kind of relationship will that build with the dog?

Then quickly lead her away from the stimulus that she is reacting to. Then praise & reward when she returns to "normal". Repeat every time she presents this bad habit, and eventually she will learn to ignore the cars when you tell her to "leave it".
And she will learn to ignore you because you have taught her you are untrustworthy and a danger to her.

This is a very cruel and inhumane way to teach a dog a new behavior. These methods went out of favor for most knowledgable trainers 15 years ago. A sharp tug on a dog when he is lunging is very dangerous. You can break his neck doing this. Using adversives hand in hand with positive training is counterproductive to say the least.

Now before everyone gets all bent out of shape about a chain or prong collar, we have been in obedience for at least a year with our GSP and I can assure you that the place where we train would not recommend anything that they felt harmed a dog. So the fact that they tell people to use them in training is testament to the fact that they are a useful training tool.
I have been a professional dog trainer for 15 years and haven't used a pinch coller or choke chain in the last 7 years of my career. These torture devices are not needed by someone who knows how to train dogs. The people where you train have not kept up with the times and are using very outdated methods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
It also teaches her that she cannot trust you to look after her welfare and you will not hesitate to do bad things to her. What kind of relationship will that build with the dog?



And she will learn to ignore you because you have taught her you are untrustworthy and a danger to her.

This is a very cruel and inhumane way to teach a dog a new behavior. These methods went out of favor for most knowledgable trainers 15 years ago. A sharp tug on a dog when he is lunging is very dangerous. You can break his neck doing this. Using adversives hand in hand with positive training is counterproductive to say the least.

I have been a professional dog trainer for 15 years and haven't used a pinch coller or choke chain in the last 7 years of my career. These torture devices are not needed by someone who knows how to train dogs. The people where you train have not kept up with the times and are using very outdated methods.
Over-reacting a bit, aren't we?

You have been very good at pointing out what you think is wrong about what I said, but have offered no constructive alternative.

Remove the chain or prong collar from the equation. Also, how "sharp" a tug do you think I"m talking about? Hitching the dog up to a horse speeding in the other direction? Yeesh!

The dog still needs to be encouraged to disregard the negative stimulus (the car) and be rewarded for ignoring it. What would YOU do?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
Over-reacting a bit, aren't we?
Nope. I have no patience for incompetent animal "trainers" who use pain and coersion to get a dog to behave the way they think he should.

You have been very good at pointing out what you think is wrong about what I said, but have offered no constructive alternative.
Hehe, thats my strong point, pointing out what is wrong with using pain to "train" a dog or any other animal. The problem with your method is that it doesn't teach a dog what to do, it teaches him what not to do. You see, its very difficult to teach an animal NOT to do something in in a given situation. It's not nearly as difficult to teach an animal what TO do. When a dog has a behavior you wish to extinguish, you teach him to do something in that situation that would make it impossible for him to do the unacceptable behavior. For example if you teach your dog to sit when a car approaches, he cannot possibly chase the car.

Back in the days when I lived in a subdivision, I had 2 Goldens who, during our daily walks would sit when a car approached. It wasn't long before I didn't even have to tell them to sit. They each knew, "car approaches, I sit." They also knew to sit with their butt against the curb. I'm out in the country now so I don't have to deal with that problem any longer.

Remove the chain or prong collar from the equation. Also, how "sharp" a tug do you think I"m talking about? Hitching the dog up to a horse speeding in the other direction? Yeesh!
To me, "sharp" means "sharp". I see the dog running full speed towards the car and you jerking him back when he gets to the end of the leash. Doesn't matter how hard you jerk, when he's running full speed towards the car, he is going to get jerked when he reaches the end of the leash even if you don't add to it.

The dog still needs to be encouraged to disregard the negative stimulus (the car) and be rewarded for ignoring it. What would YOU do?
No, the dog needs to know what to do when he sees a car approaching. He can be taught that in a positive manner without jerking. The first thing the person needs to do is learn how to get the dog's attention in the presence of detractions. Getting and holding the dogs attention is the basis for all positive dog training and its the first thing the student should be taught. You don't need torture devices to accomplish that. You do need to be smarter than the dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
Nope. I have no patience for incompetent animal "trainers" who use pain and coersion to get a dog to behave the way they think he should.



Hehe, thats my strong point, pointing out what is wrong with using pain to "train" a dog or any other animal. The problem with your method is that it doesn't teach a dog what to do, it teaches him what not to do. You see, its very difficult to teach an animal NOT to do something in in a given situation. It's not nearly as difficult to teach an animal what TO do. When a dog has a behavior you wish to extinguish, you teach him to do something in that situation that would make it impossible for him to do the unacceptable behavior. For example if you teach your dog to sit when a car approaches, he cannot possibly chase the car.

Back in the days when I lived in a subdivision, I had 2 Goldens who, during our daily walks would sit when a car approached. It wasn't long before I didn't even have to tell them to sit. They each knew, "car approaches, I sit." They also knew to sit with their butt against the curb. I'm out in the country now so I don't have to deal with that problem any longer.



To me, "sharp" means "sharp". I see the dog running full speed towards the car and you jerking him back when he gets to the end of the leash. Doesn't matter how hard you jerk, when he's running full speed towards the car, he is going to get jerked when he reaches the end of the leash even if you don't add to it.



No, the dog needs to know what to do when he sees a car approaching. He can be taught that in a positive manner without jerking. The first thing the person needs to do is learn how to get the dog's attention in the presence of detractions. Getting and holding the dogs attention is the basis for all positive dog training and its the first thing the student should be taught. You don't need torture devices to accomplish that. You do need to be smarter than the dog.
Again, you have done a good job of evading the question. Kindly outline YOUR FULL STRATEGY for training the dog not to react to cars. Afterall, that WAS the topic of this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
Again, you have done a good job of evading the question. Kindly outline YOUR FULL STRATEGY for training the dog not to react to cars. Afterall, that WAS the topic of this thread.
I did!!!!

1. Learn to get the dog's attention.
2. Learn to keep the dog's attention with distractions.
3. Have the dog sit when cars approach.

How much simpler can I make it????

I once made a good living doing just exactly those things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
I did!!!!

1. Learn to get the dog's attention.
2. Learn to keep the dog's attention with distractions.
3. Have the dog sit when cars approach.

How much simpler can I make it????

I once made a good living doing just exactly those things.
Ok, let's take a different tack. Let's assume you are instructing someone who has no prior experience in training a dog other than "sit, Fido". Outline your methods in a stepwise manner. For example:

"Learn to get the dog's attention". For someone who is a beginner @ training a dog, how would you go about doing this?

Ditto with #2. (Again, all this is assuming that the dog already has some foundation in obedience and doesn't have to be taught to sit.)

Let's get back to the original purpose of the thread: to EDUCATE PEOPLE.

Pax,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,965 Posts
I'll go ahead and jump in this thread because I have strong views on this subject. Twenty five years ago I took my first Chow to obedience and was handed a choke chain and taught the "jerk to get attention" method. They also handed a big akita pup a prong collar because the dog was so strong. I ended up with a well trained, very paranoid Chow. Since I have gone to pure positive training with clickers and treats with Rocky, I now have a Chow that trusts me explicitly. He is the happiest dog I've ever owned and can learn anything I want to teach him within a day or two. The dog has bonded to me like a baby duck! If you want to know how I trained him to ignore cars, see my post at the beginning of this subject. I actually am in full agreement with RFD on training methods. There are a lot of internet sites on the subject if you want complete details on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
Ok, let's take a different tack. Let's assume you are instructing someone who has no prior experience in training a dog other than "sit, Fido". Outline your methods in a stepwise manner. For example:

"Learn to get the dog's attention". For someone who is a beginner @ training a dog, how would you go about doing this?

Ditto with #2. (Again, all this is assuming that the dog already has some foundation in obedience and doesn't have to be taught to sit.)

Let's get back to the original purpose of the thread: to EDUCATE PEOPLE.
You are asking me to outline an 8 week course that I charge $450 for. I'm not going to do that here. I suggest you get the following books if you want to learn more about positive training and its benefits.

1. The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
2. Clicking With Your Dog ... I can't remember the author right now and my copy is loaned out.
3. The Other End of the Leash by Dr. Patricia Mcconnell
4. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

If you want to get more into the history, scientific studies and psychological pricinpals involved in positive training you can get the book Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor.

Those should keep you busy for a while. :smile:

ETA: BTW, when I train dogs, I rarely use a leash so jerking is just out of the question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
You are asking me to outline an 8 week course that I charge $450 for. I'm not going to do that here. I suggest you get the following books if you want to learn more about positive training and its benefits.

1. The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
2. Clicking With Your Dog ... I can't remember the author right now and my copy is loaned out.
3. The Other End of the Leash by Dr. Patricia Mcconnell
4. Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

If you want to get more into the history, scientific studies and psychological pricinpals involved in positive training you can get the book Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor.

Those should keep you busy for a while. :smile:

ETA: BTW, when I train dogs, I rarely use a leash so jerking is just out of the question.
Ok. Now we know where you stand. No $$$, no answer.

FYI, I am a professional scuba instructor. On the many scuba forums where I participate (and Moderate) I actually HELP people when they ask a question, instead of sidesteping the issue and referring them to books.

Thanks for "helping" the thread starter with h/h problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
Ok. Now we know where you stand. No $$$, no answer.
No, thats not where I'm at. There are 2 problems with what you ask. FIrst is that to answer your questions completely, it would take several pages and I don't have time for that stuff. Second, you are not the one with the problem. You are a person with the wrong answer to someone elses problem. If that person has a specific question, I will be glad to answer.

I actually HELP people when they ask a question, instead of sidesteping the issue and referring them to books.
Again, you don't want an answer because your dog has a problem. You just want to be argumenative and that doesn't bother me. I can be argumenative with the best of them and win most of the time. I just don't have time right now. Maybe in a week or so, I will have more time and we can argue all you wish about positive training as opposed to coersive/forceful training. :smile:

I'll bet the person who started the thread actually understood my answers and needed no further help. Since I got no further questions, I will assume that is the case.

ETA: The books actually have the answers to your questions. Read them, you will learn a lot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,171 Posts
No, thats not where I'm at. There are 2 problems with what you ask. FIrst is that to answer your questions completely, it would take several pages and I don't have time for that stuff. Second, you are not the one with the problem. You are a person with the wrong answer to someone elses problem. If that person has a specific question, I will be glad to answer.

Again, you don't want an answer because your dog has a problem. You just want to be argumenative and that doesn't bother me. I can be argumenative with the best of them and win most of the time. I just don't have time right now. Maybe in a week or so, I will have more time and we can argue all you wish about positive training as opposed to coersive/forceful training. :smile:

I'll bet the person who started the thread actually understood my answers and needed no further help. Since I got no further questions, I will assume that is the case.

ETA: The books actually have the answers to your questions. Read them, you will learn a lot.
I am more than happy to discuss differences in training techniques, without being judgmental or condescending.

OTOH, all YOU want to do tell us all how "experienced" you are and how answering questions is a waste of your valuable time. Why bother posting at all then?

Just remember, I didn't ask the original question, but was interested in how someone who purports themselves to be a professional would handle it. Ascribing any other "motive" to my queries is imprudent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
I am more than happy to discuss differences in training techniques, without being judgmental or condescending.
I am judgemental when it comes to putting an animal in pain. It is entirely unnecessary to use pain and/or coersion when training a dog. There is nothing that a dog can't be taught using positive methods that he can be taught using pain/coersion.

OTOH, all YOU want to do tell us all how "experienced" you are and how answering questions is a waste of your valuable time. Why bother posting at all then?
I haven't even told half of my experience in animal training. I never said answering questions is a waste of my time. I'm retired now and have lots of time. :smile: I post on this list to help people with their dog problems. If your dog has a problem, ask, you will get an answer.

Just remember, I didn't ask the original question, but was interested in how someone who purports themselves to be a professional would handle it. Ascribing any other "motive" to my queries is imprudent.
Possibly so and I apologize for that but I did answer your question. To go into more detail, say the words "watch me" to the dog. The instant he looks at your eyes, click/treat. After he is reliable with that do the same thing but hesitate 5 seconds before click/treating. After that is reliable move to 15 seconds, then 20, then 40, then a minute and go on as long as you wish but be aware, staring at a dog for 10 minutes is REAL boring. If the dog looks away during these exercises, in a calm voice say, "no, watch me" and start the time over. When you get up to 10 seconds or so the dog will loose interest in this exercise so don't try to get too many in a row without doing some other stuff between. If at any time he looses reliability at a time level, back up a step or two until he is doing that reliably. After you have time built up to where you want it, you might want to add distance. Get his attention from 5 feet away, then 10 feet, etc. With practice you will be able to get and hold your dogs attention from a great distance for a long time.

When those things are where you want them, go outside where there are people walking by or milling around. Start off with very small distractions ... maybe someone standing in the yard 2 houses a way. Gradually work up to a bunch of kids playing very close.

Don't push the dog faster than he is capable of going. If he starts failing, back up the criteria to an easier level for a while until he catches up. You want to to succeed at least 80% of the time. If he is doing less, the criteria is too difficult. He will get there but you will need to back up a little and bring him along a little slower.

In the beginning, you should be working inside with absolutely no distractions. At this stage, you will not need a leash. You will quickly learn that you can get your dogs attention without any kind of jerking "just to get his attention." The more you practice with him, the easier it will be to get and keep his attention. Always keep in mind that the dog may loose interest after 5 or 10 minutes of practice. If so, give him a great treat and stop the session for now. Try again in a few hours if you wish.

Always keep training fun. Always end on a positive note.

If you have more detailed questions, ask away.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,965 Posts
I was telling my husband about this thread while we were watching tv last night and Rocky was chewing his bone in the living room, When I just mentioned the words "watch Momma" to my husband in conversation, he laughed and pointed to the floor. There was Rocky, ignoring his bone and staring intently at me , waiting to see what I wanted from him! It's the most useful thing I"ve ever learned to teach my dogs and they learned it so easily.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top