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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I was wondering if anyone believes in the "benefits" of shock collars. A small breed dog came into my work with one on, and I obviously had to remove it, as we can't leave them on while they play with the other dogs, and the poor little guy had two BURN marks from where it was constantly been shocking him, that were scabbed over and swollen.
I've always wondered why not put a little time into training a more huumane way....
This is about the tenth case like this I've seen after removing the cruel devices from poor dog's necks at daycare. :frown:
 

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It's the same concept as the invisible fence, and I won't have either one!
 

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I was wondering if anyone believes in the benefits of shock collars.
There is never an instance where this cruelty is justified. There is nothing that can be taught with a shock collar that can't be taught with positive methods. The same goes for choke chains and pinch collars. Only an ignorant or lazy trainer would use these torture devices.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
There is never an instance where this cruelty is justified. There is nothing that can be taught with a shock collar that can't be taught with positive methods. The same goes for choke chains and pinch collars. Only an ignorant or lazy trainer would use these torture devices.
I agree. It amazes me how many wonderful dogs come in with these torture deices strapped around their throats. (or the equally-cruel pronged collars) I don't understand the logic behind it. The motivation. Why not spend five minutes a day TRAINING and BONDING witht eh dog using positive methods?

Training my puppies is by far the strongest bonding experience I've had with them. I can't imagine giving that up.
 

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I agree. It amazes me how many wonderful dogs come in with these torture deices strapped around their throats. (or the equally-cruel pronged collars) I don't understand the logic behind it. The motivation. Why not spend five minutes a day TRAINING and BONDING witht eh dog using positive methods?

Training my puppies is by far the strongest bonding experience I've had with them. I can't imagine giving that up.

It seems like you're under the impression E-collars train dogs. E-collars do not train dogs, they are not miracle workers. Dogs must fully understand commands prior to using an E-collar, which obviously means a lot of training and bonding first.

A bark collar and a E-collar are not the same. An E-collar could be used as a bark collar only if the dog first understood the command QUIET or SSHHHH. If one cannot train a dog to be quiet, than they shouldn’t use E-collars, one would have to use a Bark collar.
 

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So do I understand you correctly that you are justifying the use of pain and coersion in the training of dogs?


I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be and they are not as painful as most automatically assume. It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.

I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD but if you showed my dog an E-collar, she would rush you, jump up on you, may knock you over with excitement, tail wagging, and be the first to get to out the door. You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.

off to work,
see ya.
 

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I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be
"as bad" still means "bad". Remember the burn marks???

and they are not as painful as most automatically assume.
"as painful" still means "painful". Remember the burn marks????

It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.
It's still shocking your dog. How is that a good thing??? Remember the burn marks???

I too have seen several dogs with burn marks from shock collars. I had a client one time who had a Golden Retriever with the hair on the front of the neck burned off after he returned from "boot camp".

I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD but if you showed my dog an E-collar, she would rush you, jump up on you, may knock you over with excitement, tail wagging, and be the first to get to out the door.
I don't believe it.

You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.
I have used pinch collars and choke chains before I learned a better way to train. I have personally seen dogs with damage done to their necks with shock collars, pinch collars, and choke chains. There is a better way. I train dogs without using collars of any kind. I use NO pain in the least. NO coersion. Just happy fun training and its more effective than pain and coersion. Don't knock it until you have tried it and obviously you haven't because you would have thrown away the shock collar by now if you knew how to train postively.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I don't think e-collars are as bad as people make them out to be and they are not as painful as most automatically assume.
So two holes burned in the fur of a dog's neck is not so bad? Tell that to the little guy who just had his cleaned out once again by myself. And for an update, they're also infected. But I guess that's not so bad either.


It's more like a simple tap on the shoulder.
I have given Champ a tap or two on the shoulder, never has it left burn marks. Ever.


I know this may seem confusing most all of you, especially Corgi Paws and RFD
You're absolutely right. It is BEYOND my understanding as to why someone would abuse their pets in the name of training. Forgive me, I can't grasp that concept.

You folks talk about things you never tried and have little to no understanding about, and that is the ignorance.
You're absolutely right, once again. I never have and never would use a torture device on any of my dogs. (though I've had a few ex boyfriends who qualify for the treatment. LOL) But do NOT be so IGNORANT as to tell me I have no understanding of the damn things when I see it time and time again. I am not making assumptions over something I have never seen.
You were not there this morning as I cleaned the wounds of yet ANOTHER dog abused by such things. If it were a one time thing, I would not have vented over it but it's not a one time thing. If the dogs that come in don't have total burn marks on their skin, their fur is at least affected.
Seeing it time and time again is not ignorance. DOn't make assumptions about something you know nothing about.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Tried a bark collar a few years ago, hated it, threw it away. It was cruel!

At least you learned and fixed it. Some peopl have yet to do so and their pets suffer for it.
 

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More on this later, but for right now:

It is not the car that kills but the drunk behind the wheel.
It is not the gun the kills but the person pulling the trigger.
It is not the knife that cuts but the one holding it, and...obviously

It IS NOT the e-collar that hurts dogs, it is the person holding the transmitter.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
It IS NOT the e-collar that hurts dogs, it is the person holding the transmitter.
Hmmm, I've never seen any part of the human body cause wounds of the fashion I've seen from the collar.
Therefore... it's the torture device...... I mean "collar"
 

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You're absolutely right, once again. I never have and never would use a torture device on any of my dogs. (though I've had a few ex boyfriends who qualify for the treatment. LOL) But do NOT be so IGNORANT as to tell me I have no understanding of the damn things when I see it time and time again. I am not making assumptions over something I have never seen.
You were not there this morning as I cleaned the wounds of yet ANOTHER dog abused by such things. If it were a one time thing, I would not have vented over it but it's not a one time thing. If the dogs that come in don't have total burn marks on their skin, their fur is at least affected.
Seeing it time and time again is not ignorance. DOn't make assumptions about something you know nothing about.
The people you encounter shouldn't own pets it seems to me. If they're burning their dogs necks maybe you should report that to someone?

E-collars do not need to burn . You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.

My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.

Reality is there is a lot of distractions out there in the real world besides the little red ball rolled along the carpet in puppy training school. Sure they're quick to take your money but they're not going to give any guarantee.

I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.
When I say "come" she comes. Many folks think they have recall of their dogs, but when the moment of truth comes their dogs could care less about them or their little bags of treats, for there is no respect.

I see it all the time, people think they can let their dog off lead at the park or big field as they take a little walk. They're usually the owners who end up screaming at the top their lungs for their dogs, waving a treatie and their dogs could care less about them. They've been spoiled rotten with treats no doubt and have no respect or willingness to obey a simple command and more or less tell you to go scr$w at every distraction.

I recall taking my daughter who was about 10 at the time and her little girlfriend to the wide open field a few miles away. About 3000 acres and the perfect windy day to fly a kite. It was a great day! Zoey was off lead, roaming where ever she wanted to go, but like a good dog generally just hanging around us three, within a couple hundred feet. After about 45 minutes I notice a lady shows up with her dog near the entrance and lets her dog off lead, maybe a 1/2 mile away. Next thing you know, her dog immediately starts to charge us, no doubt coming in to see the other dog in the field. Meanwhile, my Zoe stays by us and holds up her ground. The owner is now screaming her dogs name but the dog could care less about her, no respect, 0% recall. I say "stay" and my dog does not go out but rather now seems concerned about this charging dog coming and it's motive. The lady cannot control her dog bottom line and lucky the dogs didn't get into a scuffle. There was some barking and growling
when things got too close and the lady's dog finally backed off and left the area. Perfect example of how one thinks they have things under control off lead with their dogs, despite all that treatie rewards in the past, their dogs could care less about them and their treats when they encounter distraction. The lady mumbles something about my dog being mean and waddles on her way down path.

Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other. She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.

You doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar because you only associate them in you mind being torture devices and no dog could possibly want one of those things around the neck. The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.
 

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E-collars do not need to burn. You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.
NO, I very well understand electric shock.

My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.
You take a chance ONLY when you have complete trust and faith in your dog and his devotion to you. My dogs are outside everyday off leash and have been for nearly 6 years. They come when called. Thats whats called complete trust and faith in your dog and trust in the bond between you. I can walk my dogs through PetSmart with their leashes dragging the ground. (They won't let me take them in off leash.)

Reality is there is a lot of distractions out there in the real world besides the little red ball rolled along the carpet in puppy training school. Sure they're quick to take your money but they're not going to give any guarantee.
There are ways to proof your dogs against distractions.

I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.
I don't call your dog's recall 100% if you have to use a torture device to get her to do it.

Many folks think they have recall of their dogs, but when the moment of truth comes their dogs could care less about them or their little bags of treats, for there is no respect.
You're right, many are like that. Also many who really understand dog training and dog psychology have compelte recall with their dogs without torture devices.

Perfect example of how one thinks they have things under control off lead with their dogs, despite all that treatie rewards in the past, their dogs could care less about them and their treats when they encounter distraction.
You really should learn about postive training and how to properly do it. I think you would be surprised. My dogs don't get more than one or two treats a day if that many. Many days go by that they don't get one.

Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other.
How can you possibly with good concience say that when you have to put a shock collar on her to get that respect????????? How can you possibly say you respect your dog with you shock her when she doesn't present the behavior you wish????? I think you need to look up the meanings for the words "love" and "respect".

She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.
I don't think she does.

You doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar because you only associate them in you mind being torture devices and no dog could possibly want one of those things around the neck. The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.
I think she trusts the collar is going to shock her if she doesn't do what you say.
 

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You really should learn about postive training and how to properly do it. I think you would be surprised. My dogs don't get more than one or two treats a day if that many. Many days go by that they don't get one.
I know all about positive training. E-collar training cannot be successful without positive training. That's why my dog loves her E-collar and has no resentment of what you folks call painful torture shock devices. I speak from experience working with E-collars. Typical, those opposed to E-collar training just let emotion take over, have no experience, and can only see what they want to see (the negatives).
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The people you encounter shouldn't own pets it seems to me. If they're burning their dogs necks maybe you should report that to someone?
Been there, done that. They can't do anything. Shock collars are totally legal and all they have to say is "oops" when it gets investigated. I've reported MANY people. Unfortunately the law does NOT protect our pets as it does our children.

E-collars do not need to burn . You should report someone abusing their dog with an E-collar. The reason you stated you doubt that my dog gets excited when she sees her E-collar displays a complete lack of understanding.
Have you considered perhaps it means she's excited to go out, NOT excited about the collar? Dogs aren't stupid, they don't enjoy pain. I have a hard time believing that your dog enjoys this treatment.


My dog has been fully E-collar trained and it started at about 5 months of age. She will be 7 come Sept. She is never off lead without her E-collar no way, why take a chance.
I take a chance because I DO have full love and respect for my dogs. I know they can do it. I have no doubt in them. I know they're trained well because I trained them myself using positive methods only. I guess for me it's not so much "taking a chance" it's having confidence in my dog's ability to focus. When you have a loyal intelligent dog that respects you, being out off lead is no gamble. Perhaps that's something you have no experience with.


I have 100% guaranteed total recall each and every time regardless of distraction. Cat, dog, deer, people, bicycle, jogger, cars, motorcycles, it doesn't matter what the distraction I have recall every time.
When I say "come" she comes.
You have not. 100% recall is when you can call your dog, and she comes, nothing else added or needed. She coems because if she steps out of line, you shock her. You can't say you don't because if you didn't there would be no need to wear the thing in the first place.
That is NOT perfected recall.

Next thing you know, her dog immediately starts to charge us, no doubt coming in to see the other dog in the field. Meanwhile, my Zoe stays by us and holds up her ground. The owner is now screaming her dogs name but the dog could care less about her, no respect, 0% recall. I say "stay" and my dog does not go out but rather now seems concerned about this charging dog coming and it's motive. The lady cannot control her dog bottom line and lucky the dogs didn't get into a scuffle.
Surely if the woman had shocked her dog over and over her recall would be just as good. Or perhaps if your dog wasn't being shocked she would have ran up just the same frenzy.



Relationship with my dog is based about both plenty of love and respect for each other. She knows she is not going to get abused, hurt or burned wearing her E-collar because she trusts in me and knows that is not what it's about.
If you respected her you'd have the confidence in her behavior without the collar. Period.


The trust and respect elements in the relationship, part of the bonding, is earned over time and doesn't center around a treat in a plastic bag.
You're right. In fact, I don't even buy treats. They get fish oil capsules as treats at night when they go to bed. My dogs listen to me because I have never hurt them in any way. Sure, a firm "NO!" breaks Grissom's little heart for about thirty seconds but he does NOT know the meaning of a raised hand or a shock being sent through his neck. He's nine months old, and I assure you his recall is better than most adult dogs. Sure, he gets distracted every now and then, he's a puppy, but that's a part of the learning experience. If he never slips up, I can't correct him and therefore he never learns. Champ is two and a half. His recall is a true 100% because he's learned that I love and respect him and when I ask him to do something it's for his own good. He doesn't come because he's afraid. He doesn't come because I might beat him if he doesn't/ He doesn't come because I'll shock him for disobeing. He comes because he is truely trained, and has a good relationship with me.

It's about a true honest bond between canine and human based on love, respect, and understand of eachother's needs.

But I can't expect you to understand something you have no experience with...
 
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