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Welcome to the board. >>>>>

thanks. glad to be here.

While I may disagree w some of what you say. from what i have read I prob agree more than not.
 

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Being a HUMAN doctor I have to think that with the greater amount of "holistic" vets and the increase frequency in some of them to recommend raw diets or higher meat based foods along with the expanding "premium" dog foods and prepared raw that research IS going on. Most research in medicine is not done by the big universities and big pharma. Its done in controlled case studies. when a few point in a direction It then is taken and followed up by larger groups.

I will argue not to outright dismiss any research (even if its backed by a dog food company and does not support the conclusion you want) just log its results, possible bias, the quality of the study (size, efforts to eliminate a pre-determined outcome). No single study really means a whole lot. Its only after a few studies combined (sometimes pieces of each) w observation do the have meaning.

It seems to me at this point most is opinion based stating such "raw is makes evolutionary sense" or "wolves live longer when fed in captivity with dog food"

An example would be this Cautions Against Raw Food Diets If looked at purely from a scientific standpoint w no bias towards raw or kibble one would say interesting. obviously had conclusions that supported the studies author's product, poorly done.
interesting, log the result, take with a grain of salt until more research supports the conclusion.

Anyway I simply have to believe that many case studies are in the works. Ultimately its up to the individual to weight benefits and potential risks(with the best info available) of any diet and make a choice.
 

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Just a head's up...my friend is in vet school up in Madison.
She told me that her nutrition textbooks (along with some other textbooks) were written by a major dog food company.

Not a good, holistic one either, obviously. :(
I also have a friend about to graduate from Auburn vet school in Alabama, and she said she has only had part of one semester in pet nutrition. Thats it. Vets don't get a whole lot of that in schooling. We know more about it than they do.
 

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Vet school, if like med school, gives you the basis to understand nutrition by giving you the background in physiology, biochemistry ect. Most everything else is post graduate which is guided by the individuals interest
 

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An example would be this Cautions Against Raw Food Diets If looked at purely from a scientific standpoint w no bias towards raw or kibble one would say interesting. obviously had conclusions that supported the studies author's product, poorly done.
interesting, log the result, take with a grain of salt until more research supports the conclusion.
I've been feeding raw for 8 years and began after a year of my own research. So for 9 years I've been seeing Lisa Newman's articles against raw feeding while pushing her own products. I don't buy anything she says any more than I buy the marketing material from the dog food companies.

I always view with suspicion any information given to me by someone who stands to make money from any decision I make based on this information.

In this particular aritcle that you linked to, she is "studying" a BARF diet which is not the diet most of us feed. BARF diet in general contains a lot of inappropriate foods for carnivores. It includes about 20% or more of carbohydrates. The BARF diet as recommended also contains too much bone and not enough meat.

Most of us here feed a Prey Model Raw diet. It's made up of meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs.

Anyway I simply have to believe that many case studies are in the works. Ultimately its up to the individual to weight benefits and potential risks(with the best info available) of any diet and make a choice.
I really don't know of any studies at present and I don't think you will find any studies on any raw diet. Who would benefit from such a study? I think if you stay around here you will see our "study".

We do the same as scientific researchers. We take an animal, we do something different, and we observe the results. All of us raw feeders have done this. Many of us more than once. We take a kibble fed dog, switch him to a raw diet and observe the results. Overwhelmingly we find great improvment with the raw diet. Very rarely someone will have to switch back to kibble for one reason or another and then they observe those imporvements disappear.

One more good test. Join a lot of groups like ours. You will see many posts saying, "I am switching my dog to a raw diet ......". You will see very few posts saying, "I switched my dog to a raw diet and it didn't work and I'm switching back to kibble." You will also see a lot of posts saying, "I switched to raw because my dog had XYZ problem and after a short period the problem disappeard (or got significently better)." Again, rarely will you see, "I switched my dog to a raw diet because he had XYZ problem and he got worse on the diet." I can't remember seeing one of these ever.
 

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i fed BARF for a while, and switched back to kibble after 4 months. my dogs lost weight and looked like crap.

but thats not PMR, so i cant comment on that.
 

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Who would benefit from such a study?>>>>>

As stated - most case studies are practice based. with more vets advocating raw, you will start to see it in the literature.
 

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A quick look at Pub MEd shows quite a bit of research regarding various aspects of a raw diet, biodegradability of byproducts, even some controversy in the vet field. However its $20 a pop to read them :mad:
 

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I am a scholarly man, and that being said i would "tend" to believe that feeding a raw diet is more natural and healthier than feeding kibble. However, I do believe kibble has come along way, and I feed my dogs kibble. My animals coats are shiny with no signs of scaling or flaking of the skin. I do believe this forum is for debating/learning/sharing knowledge of KIBBLE, not the advantages or disadvantages of RAW diets. On a sidenote, I would love to hear if the people feeding their dogs RAW diets ever eat Mcdonalds, Wendys, drink milkshakes, ect or anything else deemed BAD by society. I would hope all these people have sculpted bodies!!!! It does seem as if the raw diet folks seem to constantly be defending/promoting themselves. I would say to try to stay on course and post in the correct forum. Once again, I do believe a raw diet is more natural and beneficial, lets just post in the correct places and let others who feed kibble learn in this forum...
 

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Actually John, this forum is the "catch all" here where anyone can chat about anything pertaining to diets and nutrition, regardless of if it's raw or kibble. People who want to discuss and learn about kibble should look in the kibble section or here. People who want to discuss and learn about raw should look in the raw forum and here.
 

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I am a scholarly man, and that being said i would "tend" to believe that feeding a raw diet is more natural and healthier than feeding kibble. However, I do believe kibble has come along way, and I feed my dogs kibble. My animals coats are shiny with no signs of scaling or flaking of the skin. I do believe this forum is for debating/learning/sharing knowledge of KIBBLE, not the advantages or disadvantages of RAW diets. On a sidenote, I would love to hear if the people feeding their dogs RAW diets ever eat Mcdonalds, Wendys, drink milkshakes, ect or anything else deemed BAD by society. I would hope all these people have sculpted bodies!!!! It does seem as if the raw diet folks seem to constantly be defending/promoting themselves. I would say to try to stay on course and post in the correct forum. Once again, I do believe a raw diet is more natural and beneficial, lets just post in the correct places and let others who feed kibble learn in this forum...
I don't eat any fast food, and try to eat as healthy and organic as I can afford.
I also do 150 minutes of cardio per week, and lift free weights 3-4 times a week in addition to that.
I also feed my parrot raw and natural as well, but our cat isn't having it.
Some dogs do fine on kibble.
My friend, who is 5'7 and 125lbs eats McDonald's, Taco Bell or Qdoba nearly every day for lunch, she doesn't cook and eats a ton of candy. She doesn't work out, yet she is thin, lithe and has nice hair. *shrug*
Life is unfair like that.
 

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I am a scholarly man, and that being said i would "tend" to believe that feeding a raw diet is more natural and healthier than feeding kibble. However, I do believe kibble has come along way, and I feed my dogs kibble. My animals coats are shiny with no signs of scaling or flaking of the skin. I do believe this forum is for debating/learning/sharing knowledge of KIBBLE, not the advantages or disadvantages of RAW diets. On a sidenote, I would love to hear if the people feeding their dogs RAW diets ever eat Mcdonalds, Wendys, drink milkshakes, ect or anything else deemed BAD by society. I would hope all these people have sculpted bodies!!!! It does seem as if the raw diet folks seem to constantly be defending/promoting themselves. I would say to try to stay on course and post in the correct forum. Once again, I do believe a raw diet is more natural and beneficial, lets just post in the correct places and let others who feed kibble learn in this forum...
Hmm...aside from it sounding incredibly condescending, I'm always suspicious of anyone who starts a post with something like, "I am a scholarly man." What does this mean exactly? Does this mean that those of us who aren't "scholarly" have no business deciding what to feed our animals, we aren't entitled to an opinion on this, and we're not supposed to discuss it or exchange ideas on it?

You DO know that the academics of the world have most of canine nutrition wrong thanks to perversion of their studies from the pet food industry, right? Is it wrong for us to challenge the "conventional wisdom" on canine nutrition just because we don't walk around university laboratories wearing white coats? Do you have any idea how many times in history conventional wisdom that came from academia turned out to be completely wrong?

Moving forward, as Natalie said, this is the correct place for this discussion. This is a general nutrition forum, not the kibble forum which is here: Dry and Canned Dog Food - Dog Food Forum and not the Raw Feeding forum, which is here: Raw Feeding - Dog Food Forum

With regards to your comment about human junk food, I offer you this perspective. As a human I get to make choices, whether good or bad, that affect myself. I am also intelligent enough to exercise MODERATION. As such, if I eat a predominately wholesome diet (exactly what comprises that in humans is still a matter of great debate, regardless of what "society" deems as bad) and I choose to occasionally eat fast food or a treat from the bakery, it's not going to affect my overall health and well being. But that is MY decision.

My dogs, on the other hand, have no choice. They rely entirely on me for their nutritional needs so it's up to me to keep them on track with a proper diet. Again, what comprises a proper canine diet is a matter of debate, but whatever you feed your dogs, that is what they have to eat. They have no options to make changes to their own diet.

While kibble has improved in many ways in recent years as you say, many of us feel that even the best commercial pet food still has too many species-inappropriate ingredients for our dogs. To me, feeding a dog kibble every day would be like feeding my kid breakfast cereal every day. You may have a different opinion and you are entitled to it but as usual, those who wag their fingers at us raw feeders for being too "defensive" or "self promoting" are usually people who have never tried raw and have no idea what it's really like. Nearly every raw feeder was once a kibble feeder so understand that we've seen both sides first-hand.

Furthermore, raw feeders have no "commercial representation" in the world. This is it, a place to discuss. So that is what we do. 99% of dog owners probably don't even read the information on the bag or can of food they buy their dogs. They aren't interested in discussions or sharing ideas and information. They just want to open the bag or can and plop some product in a bowl and walk away. That is the extent of their participation in the process.

Raw feeding isn't as simple and requires research and discussion. Once you've done it for awhile, it's easy. But getting started requires reading and asking questions. That's why you see more discussions about raw here than commercial food. And again, since we've all been on both sides of the fence and we've seen the incredible results of raw, we like to talk about it and "promote" it. Who else is going to advocate this diet, the animals? All we care about is what is best for dogs. Nobody here is making money from promoting raw and that alone should get your attention and make you realize that collectively, there is a LOT of feeding experience here, a lot of great advice available, and we are here to help you do what is ultimately best for your dog. You don't have to agree, and yes, sometimes you need a bit of thick skin around here. But you won't get the raw people around here blowing smoke up your rear and trying to sell you something.

Welcome to the forum.
 

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Perfectly put, as usual, Jay. :)
 

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how many studies, do you suppose, and clinical trials have been performed on coffee and eggs?

it's become somewhat of a joke to pick up a newspaper or google the news and read that, today, a study came out to talk about the perils of eggs and the benefits of coffee or vice versa.....for thirty years, these studies change like a fair weathered friend.

i am one who feeds my dogs raw, and i do not eat fast food. i exercise. and we keep no junk in our home. if we want a treat badly enough, we have to get into the car.

it is said that we pay for our eating habits in our forties.....along with whatever genetics we've been blessed with or cursed with....i believe that is true for humans and dogs...

the body is an amazing structure and tries to adapt to anything....which is why people say you never feel the bullet...those endorphins are wonderful.

all the processed crap we ate as teens and twenties and thirties may not show up until forties or fifties, no matter how much exercise is involved...because the organs only adapt for so long until they can no longer adapt; hence, high cholesterol is not just genetic, it's diet induced....diabetes II - adult onset diabetes is now directly related to diet....i could go on with human disease but i think it's pretty clear....

the thing about processed foods is they pay you back. and they pay back your dog, too....

we live in spite of what we eat.....we survive, but do we thrive?

i know of dogs fed pedigree who have lived beyond their normal life span and i know of dogs who have died before their time...

everyone has an expiration date...but i don't feed raw to extend the life of my dog, although i hope it does....removing extraneous ingredients, i believe, will help their bodies thrive.....

the quality of their lives, however long, is paramount to me. and that is why i feed raw.

my observations include no more diarrhea, no more tooth decay, no more gingivitis....whereas on kibble, my malia had giardia at age ten, which is unusual and she had to have a tooth pulled because of a cavity when she was nine. sugar feeds disease.
dogs are carnivores - meat organ bone animal fat
humans are omnivores - protein and veggies and fruits and animal and plant fat
cattle are herbivores - grains

that's how i see it. i'm sure others see it differently....and

i like what jay said about my dogs having no choice.....he's right. i am their only advocate...it's my job to feed them what *I* consider the best choice.....i did it for my son and i research for myself and my husband, too...i can do no less for my dogs.

my 2c
 

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The passion breemed by the raw enthusiasts is most desirable! Again my comments suggest NOT to be elitists, yet be teachers and accept the decisions made by RESPONSIBLE dog owners who make the choice to feed a high quality kibble due to time/money constraints. Most folks have an understanding of RAW, yet those still feeding kibble still do come to this forum to learn about :tongue:which kibble to feed . Thanks:smile:
 

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Lifes Abundance. Yeah people give me crap on how its sold and where it stands on the How Great Is My Dog Food List. But all I know is that all my animals do great on it, and a lot of my clients use it as well and seem to really like the results. the one thing I love is that I can talk to the vet that formulates it anytime that I want. And if she thinks her food might not be the best option she doesn't have a problem telling you. I think the thing I like the most is the freshness factor of the food. And it's a small company and been around for about 10 years. I'm sure I'll get crap for even writing this

It got a good review here: Life’s Abundance Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating
 
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