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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
A Look at the Ingredients of Abady Dog Food: Just the Facts

I will attempt to remain as objective as possible during this analysis. Sorry if it is consequently a bit dense.

Based on the Abady Classic Formula for Maintenance and Stress

Chicken By-Products Meal AAFCO definition: "consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice"; A very vague product with a high amount of variability. While the nutrient composition is comparable to chicken meal, it is not as digestible to the animal.

White Rice Inexpensive energy source. Low nutrient quantities.

Menhaden Fish Meal Not used for human consumption because Menhaden fish spoil very quickly along with having a low palatibility. A very bony fish. Must be rendered and preserved immediately to maintain product viability. Most importantly, Menhaden contain an enzyme called thiaminase which can cause thiamine deficiencies. Being the third ingredient on the list, this is concerning and the diet must be fortified with substantial amounts of thiamine to counteract the thiaminase. It is possible that the thiaminase may denature the thiamine present in this feed, so it may be necessary to supplement. High in DHA and EPA forms of linoleic acid.

Lard AAFCO definition: "the rendered fat of swine." A low grade fat with a high palatibility. While it is very high in linoleic acid (Omega 6 fatty acids), the important of the two essential fatty acids is not the quantity, but the ratio between the two. Linolenic acid (Omega 3) deficiency is much more common than linoleic acid deficiencies. It is very low in linoleic acid. Inexpensive energy source. High in cholesterol. Low nutrient density.

Safflower Oil: Good source of linoleic acid. Very heat stable.

Beef Fat Interchangeable with tallow. AAFCO definition: "Fat with titer above 40 degrees Celsius, obtained from the tissue of cattle in the commercial process of rendering." Very low in linoleic acid, while high in linolenic acid. High palatibility. Inexpensive energy source. High in cholesterol. Low nutrient density.

Dicalcium Phosphate High in both calcium and phosphorus.

Beef Meat and Bone Meal AAFCO definition: "The rendered product from beef tissues, including bone, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents, except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices." A very vague and variable product. While high in protein, it has poor nutrient availability to the animal.

Potassium Chloride: An inexpensive inorganic source of potassium with low availability to the animal.

Undefatted Beef Liver: No AAFCO definition available. Possibly high in fat since liver is usually very high in fat unless defatted. Generally, liver is very nutrient dense and contains substantial quantities of Vitamin A, Iron, and 5 B Vitamins. One should use caution when feeding liver, however, since vitamin A is present in a form that is not able to be regulated by the body and may result in Vitamin A toxicity.

Flaxseed Oil: High in linolenic acid in the form of ALA. ALA is unusuable to the canine; only EPA and DHA are available.

Whey Protein Concentrate: Inexpensive protein source with high bioavailability.

Choline Chloride: High in choline (a B vitamin). Negatively affects the stability of several vitamin and inorganic mineral sources, including Vitamin A, K3 (menadione sodium bisulfite complex), thiamine mononitrate and niacinamide. A less expensive and less bioavailable source of choline compared to lecithin.

Natural Flavor: AAFCO definition: "A substance, such as an extract or spice, that add flavor to a product." It could be any substance that adds flavor.

Menhaden Fish Oil: An inexpensive by-product of making menhaden fish meal. No vitamins or minerals present. Good energy source. High in DHA and EPA forms of linoleic acid. High in linolenic acid.

Ferrous Sulfate: An inexpensive inorganic source of iron with low bioavailability. Can affect the availability of other nutrients.

d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate: A synthetic vitamin E supplement. Contains half the bioavailability of organic sources of vitamin E.

Magnesium Oxide: An inexpensive inorganic source of magnesium with low bioavailability.

Zinc Oxide: An inexpensive inorganic source of zinc with low bioavailability.

Ascorbic Acid: Vitamin C.

Vitamin A Acetate: An inexpensive source of vitamin A used in place of beta-carotene. Unlike beta-carotene, the uptake of vitamin A from vitamin A acetate is unable to be regulated by the body posing a risk for vitamin A toxicity.

Taurine: An essential amino acid for dogs, source unspecified.

Niacinamide: A source of niacin. Absorbancy is affected by choline chloride which is also present in this product.

d-Calcium Pentothenate: A synthetic form of pentothenic acid (B5). Shown to have similar availability to natural sources.

Inositol: Vitamin B8.

Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex: A source of antioxidants derived from citrus fruits.

Ergocalciferol: An animal-derived source of vitamin D. Usually unnecessary in animals with adequate access to the outdoors.

Manganese Sulfate: An inexpensive inorganic source of manganese with low bioavailability.

Riboflavin: A B complex vitamin.

Potassium Iodide: An inorganic source of iodine. Frequently shown to cause reactions due to sensitivity including goiter formation, exhaustion, and painful muscles. Iodine sensitivity is a fairly common sensitivity. Poor regulation of uptake of iodine from this source can result in toxicity.

Phytonadione: A plant-based source of vitamin K. Vitamin K supplementation is unnecessary in dogs with a healthy microbial population.

Thiamin Hydrochloride: An inexpensive inorganic source of thiamine with low bioavailability.

Pyridoxine Hydrochloride: An inexpensive inorganic source of pyridoxine with low bioavailability.

Cupric Oxide: An inexpensive inorganic source of copper with low bioavailability. A confirmed neurotoxin.

Chromium GTF An organic source of the trace mineral chromium with a high bioavailability.

Sodium Selenite: An inexpensive inorganic source of selenium with low bioavailability. Overdose may result in selenosis, but this is true for an selenium-containing compound.

Folic Acid: Vitamin B6. Source not confirmed.

Biotin: Vitamin B7.

Cyanocobalamin Concentrate: Source of B12.



Concerns:
-Absence of a muscle meat with high nutrient availability
-High concentrations of linoleic acid and low concentrations of linolenic acid
-Use of protein-dense supplements to bolster protein counts
-The use of mineral products with low bioavailability
-Contains two compounds that alter the actual amount of thiamine in the feed
-Contains potassium iodide
-Contain cupric oxide




-BEYOND THIS POINT, I AM NO LONGER COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE-

Is every ingredient in this feed bad? No.

Would I feel comfortable feeding some of the ingredients of this feed to my dogs? Yes.

Would I feed this recipe of Abady dog food to my dogs? No.




:pants: That took way too much work.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Sources:

Animal Feeding and Nutrition by Jergens and Bregendahl
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats by the NRC
AAFCO Pet Food and Specialty Pet Food Labeling Guide by the AAFCO
Various Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) from Actio Co.
Companion Animal Nutrition by Ackerman
Principles of Companion Animal Nutrition by McNamara
Organic Chemistry by Wade
Comparative Animal Biochemistry by Urich
Clinical Biochemistry of Domestic Animals by Kaneko, Harvey, and Bruce
And the beloved NutritionData.com
 

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Someone should have done this a long time ago :biggrin:

Although, to be fair, a similar breakdown should be done on Orijen and EVO.... :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Although, to be fair, a similar breakdown should be done on Orijen and EVO.... :wink:
Hahahaha, YOU get to do those ones! Maybe in a few weeks. Heck, maybe I'll start a series. :biggrin:
 

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Yes, we all know about the defintions, and most know about the sources, all connections within the industry with interests to protect (money). I will address some of these as done in the past when time allows. Right now I have to split some firewood, take my daughter to Game Stop for a trade and try to watch/listen to football. Bye for now!
 

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Part 1: more facts

Definitions are subject to the thoughts feelings of those who write them and some obvious bias comes into play. They can choose to make them as glamorous or disgusting as the author sees fit. AAFCO would support industry definition, because they believe what the industry would tell them to be true. Interestingly enough, the foods people would assert as being 'crap' diets like Purina, Hills, Euk, are the big players in the industry. They are also the ones who did research and no doubt played a role in defining ingredients. People may not care for their products, but view their philosophy of defining ingredients as gospel. I am going to concentrate on three of the above listed in the opening post, Chicken By-Product Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, and Lard.

Chicken By Product Meal

Here is what Diamond feeds have to say about CBPM:

Chicken By-Product Meal
Animal source protein, made up mostly of internal organs such as liver, digestive tract, and kidneys. The intestines are a good source of smooth muscle protein. Fifteen percent of the meal includes meat and bone. No feathers. This ingredient is very digestible and very low in ash.
CBPM-DIAMOND

Compare that to the AAFCO definition quoted by Suzzie, one might get the impression we're talking about two different ingredients. Bias does play a factor in what your are led to believe, and up to you the reader to decide what you choose to believe.

What is the Abady approach to CBPM? What is best for the animal of course, and here are some quotes to think about: (I know Suzzie can keep with this, but not sure about the rest; well ramiller of course but that goes without saying)

When ingredients are selected for the production of dog food, there are many different factors that enter into the equation. An ingredient's nutritional yield versus its cost is central to sound dietary construction.
For example -- If ingredient A is nutritionally equivalent to ingredient B, but B costs 3 times as much for the same quantity of A, then the manufacturer who uses ingredient A can include 3 times more of it in his ration than the manufacturer using ingredient B and therefore can offer three times more nutrition at no greater cost.Ultimately, what a manufacturer spends on ingredients is a major determinant of the selling price of nutritional products, therefore the manufacturer who uses ingredient A can offer a significantly better product than the manufacturer who uses ingredient B, for the same cost to the consumer if all other factors are equal.
If a manufacturer were to include one and a half times as much of ingredient A as the manufacturer who uses ingredient B, the product manufactured with ingredient A could still be 50% more nutritious than the one that includes ingredient B yet it could cost less. While any dog food maker who puts nutrition first should be aware of these basic principles, as is the Abady Company, increasing numbers of manufacturers are producing diets that are built around the equivalent of ingredient B. By reading this article, the buyer of dog food can learn which feeds are predicated more on marketing (sales appeal) than on sound nutrition.
pinnacle

Important info in that quote above, especially three times as much protein for the same cost. Remember Abady is about what is best for the animal, not aesthetics or sales appeal. Also important, note nutritionally equivalent.

More about CBPM from Abady:

By-Products (internal organs) play a central role in the feeding of carnivores, as do muscle meat, fat and bone.
Poultry by-products meal is an economical and nutritious source of high quality animal protein.
It is composed of lungs, heads, gizzards, necks, feet, intestines (without their contents) and other clean parts of the carcass.
Nutritionally it is equal to superior to the ingredients discussed earlier and it costs many multiples less.

It is not true that heads or even feet (which represent only a small component of poultry by-products meal) are undesirable as components of dog food.
While they have little aesthetic appeal to humans, heads contain valuable brain, tongue and ocular tissue, and feet are 20% protein & 16% fat.
Both are rich in various amino acids and fatty acids of the most important varieties.
Among these can be found Arginine (essential for fertility and immune system support) Glycine (a potent free-radical scavenger and a component of glucose tolerance factor which regulates insulin metabolism) and Aspartic acid (which helps with the synthesis of glycoprotein and with the detoxification of ammonia). Feathers are NOT a component of poultry by-products meal, unless it is of very low quality.
pinnacle

Remember, costing less because of that appeal means 3X's as much can be offered to the animal.

Doubts about nutritionally equivelant? Please do some comparisons for yourself:

griffin-chicken meal

griffin-PBPM

Looking at the numbers, you can clearly see one holds no distinct advantatge over the other...except for costs.

Again, Abady on CBPM and as to why it is used:

Poultry or chicken by-products meals are among the most nutritious sources of protein available to dog food makers today. They are often the nutritional equivalent of muscle meat. Because they are not consumed by people their cost is relatively low and can be used abundantly in rations while keeping the cost of the food moderate and the quality high. Intelligent dog food producers (like Abady) recognize this and take full advantage of it. In fact, it is impossible to make a dog or cat food today that contains enough quality animal protein without the liberal inclusion of by-products.
How To Choose
 

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Part II: more facts

Menhaden Fish Meal

Terrible description in the definition quoted in the opening post. More bias and author opinion. Again up to the authors personal opinion and bias, or maybe just who they work for?

What is it? Look at the Wiki information. Take note in the upper right hand corner of each page Scientific Classification.

Menhaden

Herring

Did you note the scientific classification? They are indeed the same family.

What other foods do we find this ingredient? Orijen and EVO both contain the same ingredient, called Herring meal. Abady calls it Menhaden Fish meal, in essence the same ingredient. What do they have to say by definition?

Herring meal is the clean, rendered (cooked down), dried ground tissue of undecomposed whole herring or herring cuttings, either or both, with or without the extraction of part of the oil.

Herring meal is a good source of Omega 3 fatty acids. Natura uses the whole herring including the oil from this excellent food fish in our cat and dog food products.
EVO product...see ingredient

Orijen
Loaded with bio-available protein, herring is considered as "brain food" for its rich DHA and EPA Omega-3 fatty acid content.
orijen

Taste of the Wild...they don't bother to call it Menhaden or Herring Meal, they just call it Ocean Fish Meal....how generic!

Ocean fish meal
A high quality source of protein and omega-3 fatty acids. The omega-3 fatty acids from marine sources, EPA and DHA, provide nutrition for optimal skin and coat health as well as excellent overall health.
Taste of...

I don't think they're fooling anybody, we all know what it is. So, what on earth makes you think Herring meal or Ocean Fish Meal is any better than Menhaden. It is not. Same family, same scientific classification, and the definitions is subject to that bias. Choose what you wish to believe, but what you can trust is what Abady has to say about this whole shooting match...remember in essence we are talking about the same ingredient, so EVO feeders, Orijen feeders, please read the following for a better understanding of why it is in the mix (just substitute the word herring for menhaden and you're all set):


Menhaden contains only one third as much salt as meat meal and less than either lamb or chicken meal, yet contains more than double the amount of natural potassium than lamb meal and 53% percent more than meat meal.

Menhaden's protein profile is also without peer.

It contains 91% more Lysine per gram than meat meal, 65% more than lamb meal, and 35% more than chicken meal. Lysine is essential for dogs to attain their maximum growth.
There is 146% more Tryptophan in Menhaden than is found in lamb meal, 66% more than in meat meal and 20% more than in chicken meal. Tryptophan is a nutrient affecting brain chemistry and neuro-transmitter function.
There is 60% more Valine in Menhaden than in meat meal and 30% more than in lamb meal. Valine is involved in muscle metabolism.

There is 161% more Methionine in Menhaden than in meat meal, 140% more than in lamb meal and 57% more than in poultry meal. Methionine is an anti-oxidant and free radical scavenger and is vital in forming the structure of nucleic acids, collagen and in the ability of each cell to synthesize protein. It also supports the immune system.
There is 90% more Tyrosine in Menhaden than in meat meal, 70% more than in lamb meal, and 17% more than in poultry meal. Tyrosine is essential in the production of thyroid hormones. A deficiency can cause thyroid problems. Tyrosine is also vital in maintaining pigment in skin, coat and soft tissue, preventing them against colour changes.

Low blood pressure (not uncommon in small dogs and toy breeds) can also result from inadequate levels of Tyrosine.

There are significantly larger amounts of Glutamic Acid, Histadine, Aspartic Acid, Threonine, Phenylalanine, Leucine and Isoleucine (all vital amino acids) than are found in any of the other meals.
Last but not least in Menhaden's uniquely fatty acid content.

There are two types of fat required for animal survival - the visible or hard fat and the unsaturated or invisible fats.

The invisible fats form part of the structural material in the cells of many of the body's vital organs, i.e. the brain, heart, kidneys, testes, thyroid, spleen and muscle cells.

There are two critically needed unsaturated invisible fatty acids - Linoleic and Linolenic.

Linoleic acid is fairly abundant in some vegetable oils and is found in variable amounts in some animal meals. Linolenic Acid, on the other hand, has virtually disappeared from commercially prepared animal meals as a result of modern commercial farming and feeding practices. As a result, Linolenic Acid does not appear at all, or appears only anecdotally in many commercial dog foods.

Although the dogs body can manufacture a facsimile of Linolenic Acid if there is an abundance of Linoleic Acid (which is rarely the case) the facsimile made by the body is but a poor imitation of the original linolenic and therefore cannot perform the complex intra-cellular functions of the original.

Progressive retinal atrophy and other eye disorders, as well as thyroid, kidney, malformations of the brain and heart are becoming increasingly more common in dogs. Linolenic Acid is vital for the formation, maintenance and function of these organs. A shortfall of this critical nutrient in commercial canine diets should be a matter of growing concern to dog owners.To make matters worse, dog food manufacturers have no incentive to include Linolenic Acid in their diets or assure its availability, since the standards generally used by the Industry are based on the previous erroneous scientific position that the facsimile of Linolenic Acid made by the body from Linoleic Acid functions as an adequate substitute for the original.

Bad as the situation is concerning the virtually non-existent supply of Linolenic Acid in commercial diets, it is made even worse because the availability of even a limited supply is put into question by popular methods of manufacturing dog food. Baking and extruding chunks with steam, under pressure, are known to interfere with the release and, therefore, availability of both Linoleic and Linolenic Acids.

No such problems exist with feeds manufactured by the Abady Company, since abundant supplies of Menhaden fish meal included in every formulation insure that each diets contains thousands of milligrams of Linolenic Acid and Linoleic Acid.
Equally important is the Abady Company's original two-step, low heat manufacturing process which insures the availability of both of these essential nutrients.

Cold-water free-ranging Menhaden is one of the richest sources of Linoleic and Linolenic Acids in the world.
the best

If you see herring meal, ocean fish meal, Menhaden fish meal, you now know its importance. Don't be fooled or deterred by how one chooses to describe ingredients, including AAFCO writers. Herring meal, will spoil just like menhaden meal and as quickly if that is the case, we're talking about the same stuff.
 

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Part III: more facts

Lard

What a nasty definition by AFFCO. A real turn off ehh? I know it is when you read what THEY want you to believe...for whatever reasons...costs maybe?

Taking a closer look:

Rendered fat from pig carcasses (sheep and cattle are also used). The best quality is from the fat surrounding the kidneys; neutral lard is the highest quality, prepared by agitating the minced fat with water at a temperature below 50 °C; kidney fat provides No. 1 quality; back fat provides No. 2 quality.

Leaf lard is made from the residue of kidney and back fat after the preparation of neutral lard by heating with water above 100 °C in an autoclave. Prime Steam Lard is fat from any part of the carcass, rendered in the autoclave.

Lard used to be stored in pig's bladder, hence the expression ‘bladder of lard’ for a grossly obese person.
answrs.lrd

Lard has clearly won the health debate. Shortening, the synthetic substitute foisted on this country over the last century, has proven to be a much bigger health hazard because it contains trans fats, the bugaboo du jour. Corporate food scientists figured out long ago that you can fool most of the people most of the time, and shortening (and its butter-aping cousin, margarine) had a pretty good ride after Crisco was introduced in 1911 as a substitute for the poor man’s fat.
A.Sorkin

The latest studies amazingly show that lard isn’t harmful, as it was thought, but healthy! The lard contains the arachidonic acid that relates to polyunsaturated fatty acids (Omega-6). Omega-6 is part of heart, brain and kidney tissues and essential for their proper functioning. The lard has anticancer effect as the most of carcinogens dissolve in fatty acids. As the arachidonic acid can improve metabolism and dissolve cholesterol, the lard helps remove toxins...
genius cook

Lard or pork fat is about 40% saturated, 48% monounsaturated (including small amounts of antimicrobial palmitoleic acid) and 12% polyunsaturated. Like the fat of birds, the amount of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids will vary in lard according to what has been fed to the pigs. In the tropics, lard may also be a source of lauric acid if the pigs have eaten coconuts. Like duck and goose fat, lard is stable and a preferred fat for frying. It was widely used in America at the turn of the century. It is a good source of vitamin D, especially in third-world countries where other animal foods are likely to be expensive. Some researchers believe that pork products should be avoided because they may contribute to cancer. Others suggest that only pork meat presents a problem and that pig fat in the form of lard is safe and healthy.
Mary Enig PhD, renouned expert

Lard is good.

Yes, lard makes for a heavenly, moist and flakey texture for baked goods, but before you become riddled with guilt for your indulgence in greasy goodness, consider the health benefits of animal fats.
3 surprising benefits

* Lard is 40 percent saturated fat (compared to coconut oil's 85 percent and palm kernel oil's 80 percent)
* Lard contains 'a very respectable' 45 percent monounsaturated fat (for more on the benefits of monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFAs) see the e-alert 'Change your diet to avoid Parkinsons disease' 21/7/05)

Now, in spite of the MUFA content of lard, the medical mainstream might swoon at the thought of 40 percent saturated fat. After all, saturated fats will kill you, right? They'll clog your arteries and stop your heart, correct?

Answers: No and No.
healtier life

In summation, when you look at the definitions written I think one should keep in mind they can make it sound as gross and disgusting as they prefer, but a company such as Abady will do what is best for the animal regardless.

Some of you would opt never to feed Abady products, but then again keep in mind no matter how some products may be glorified, some would also opt never to feed the products you may choose to feed.

Thanks for reading.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Part I response:

My definition came from the published AAFCO guidelines.

While nutritionally, they are the same when placed into a bomb calorimeter and other tests are done (such as using ether extracts and measuring nitrogen levels) to determine the analysis. But, that does not mean that both at equal in terms of bioavailability to the animal. The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.
 

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Part I response:

My definition came from the published AAFCO guidelines.

While nutritionally, they are the same when placed into a bomb calorimeter and other tests are done (such as using ether extracts and measuring nitrogen levels) to determine the analysis. But, that does not mean that both at equal in terms of bioavailability to the animal. The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.
I believe anything you say Suzie, well not really but you seem so nice! Is there any science or data to back up that claim the animal cannot utilize CBPM as well as CM? Because AAFCO says so?
 

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... The animal cannot utilize as much of the nutrients found in chicken by-product meal as it can those of chicken meal.
Why is that? There has to be a reason? But it just does not make any sense. I know it has nothing to do with what AAFCO says, they I think are more like watchdogs and report, but nothing to do with explanations as to why.
There has to be a reason why the can't utilize 'as much'.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Part II Response

These aren't definitions. These are the analysis of individual ingredients based on scientific information available and NOT any wiki sources or popular articles. Most of the information used to conduct these analyses of these ingredients come from sources completely independent of the AAFCO or FDA.

While in the same family, Herring and Menhaden are not the same fish. My housecats are in the same family as the Siberian tiger, but that does not make them the same cat (thank goodness).

Pacific Herring (Clupea harengus pallasi)


Menhaden Fish Meal

Atlantic Menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)



The largest difference nutritionally is the presence of thiaminase in Menhaden, but not in the Pacific Herring. There IS thiaminase in the Baltic Herring, but simply based on geographics, it is safe to assume that they use Pacific Herring.

Tearing down other products does not improve the quality of Abady.

Yes, ocean fish meal is vague.

No, Menhaden fish do spoil more rapidly than Herring fish. This is because Menhaden fish are very high in volatile aromatic compounds meaning that they oxidize very rapidly unless treated with an antioxidant shortly after death. While these volatile aromatic compounds are present in other fish, they are not present in nearly as high of compounds.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Part III Response

"Rendered fat of pig" is not scary, just accurate. All that means is that it is pig fat, melted down.

Lard is high in linoleic acid. That's good. But, it is not the best land animal source of linoleic acid as claimed by Abady. That is concerning to me.

Listed per 100g of substance

Turkey fat 21201 mg
Chicken fat 19503 mg
Duck fat 11999 mg
Lard 10199 mg
Mutton tallow 5501 mg
Beef tallow 3100 mg

Lard is very low in nutrients no matter how one looks at it.
 

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Part II Response

These aren't definitions. These are the analysis of individual ingredients based on scientific information available and NOT any wiki sources or popular articles. Most of the information used to conduct these analyses of these ingredients come from sources completely independent of the AAFCO or FDA.

While in the same family, Herring and Menhaden are not the same fish. My housecats are in the same family as the Siberian tiger, but that does not make them the same cat (thank goodness).

Pacific Herring (Clupea harengus pallasi)


Menhaden Fish Meal

Atlantic Menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)



The largest difference nutritionally is the presence of thiaminase in Menhaden, but not in the Pacific Herring. There IS thiaminase in the Baltic Herring, but simply based on geographics, it is safe to assume that they use Pacific Herring.

Tearing down other products does not improve the quality of Abady.

Yes, ocean fish meal is vague.

No, Menhaden fish do spoil more rapidly than Herring fish. This is because Menhaden fish are very high in volatile aromatic compounds meaning that they oxidize very rapidly unless treated with an antioxidant shortly after death. While these volatile aromatic compounds are present in other fish, they are not present in nearly as high of compounds.
I don't know Suzie....I think you're reaching here, these have to be so close that there can hardly be much difference in the profiles. Every thing you state here in response sounds kinds iffy. Words like 'as much' in regards to CM and CBPM, 'aromatic compounds' in the fish? What does that mean aromatic compounds? Menhaden stinks more like fish than herring so it's not as beneficial? I don't know about all this...I think it's all very challengeable stuff here!

Speaking of challenging...I was thinking recently when I had graduated undergrad school in '84, I kind wish I was a more challenging person in class. I mean instead of just sitting there accepting what they said, just skating on by as a 'C' student (better in classes with my major though), I wished I challenged my professors more instead of just listening. Putting up a argument with some of the topics, not in a negative way, but offering opposing viewpoints that have absolute merit. I may have even received better grades if I had done so. I think there are plenty of challenging ideas in regards to concepts with regards to the Abady approach to nutrition. Good concepts that can no doubt be discussed displaying interest and thought.

I gotta get some ZZZZ's
nite nite
 

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Lard is high in linoleic acid. That's good. But, it is not the best land animal source of linoleic acid as claimed by Abady. That is concerning to me.

Listed per 100g of substance

Turkey fat 21201 mg
Chicken fat 19503 mg
Duck fat 11999 mg
Lard 10199 mg
Mutton tallow 5501 mg
Beef tallow 3100 mg

Lard is very low in nutrients no matter how one looks at it.

They claim, longest chain of the carbons...less work for the body to do when it comes to the conversions to make the carbon chains long enough to be useable...really I gotta get some ZZZZ'ss. nite nite again!
 

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lets move on

Hey people, has anyone heard the one about "beating a dead horse". Lets call it a draw and move on with our lives.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Why is that? There has to be a reason? But it just does not make any sense. I know it has nothing to do with what AAFCO says, they I think are more like watchdogs and report, but nothing to do with explanations as to why.
There has to be a reason why the can't utilize 'as much'.
They don't explain why. That's not their job. They are not the ones that I would get that sort of information from.

I don't know exactly why, but I can make an educated guess.

Poultry by-product meals, contain a significant amount of heads, necks, backs, and feet. All of those contain large amounts of connective tissues. Connective tissues contain large amounts of collagen, which is a protein that is indigestible unless exposed to high heat with high humidity for a significant amount of time. Unless collagen is, essentially, predigested for the animal, it will retain its protein and nutrients.

The organ portion of the meal is just as available as muscle meat.

The fact that by-product meals are less digestible than other meat meals was originally found out in a feed study. If my memory serves correct, they took two meals, one by-product and one regular from the same animal source with comparable nutrient analyses, a placed them into two dog foods. These two dog foods were the same except for the fact that one contained meat by-product meal and the other contained meat meal (I'm not sure what type of meat, by it was named). They fed the animals this diet and then collected their urine and feces.

They analyzed the two foods and the combined nutrients of the urine and feces from each group of animals. Take the gross nutrient values of the feed, subtract the nutrient values of the urine and feces, and you have the digestible nutrient values of the feed. They found that more of what they initially put in the dogs was coming out the other end in by-product fed dogs over meat meal fed dogs.
 

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I don't know Suzie....I think you're reaching here, these have to be so close that there can hardly be much difference in the profiles. Every thing you state here in response sounds kinds iffy. Words like 'as much' in regards to CM and CBPM, 'aromatic compounds' in the fish? What does that mean aromatic compounds? Menhaden stinks more like fish than herring so it's not as beneficial? I don't know about all this...I think it's all very challengeable stuff here!

I gotta get some ZZZZ's
nite nite
As I have said before, little of this in coming from my lectures. My teachers teach me how to find information more than tell me information. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime" type mantra.

Nothing about "stink." An aromatic compound is a compound containing a benzene ring. A benzene ring is very susceptible to changing into a completely different compound simply due to their nature.

All of the below compounds are some examples of basic aromatic compounds. It is possible to make any one of the compounds in to any other compound present with only a few steps of a mechanism.



Do you really want me to go on here?
 
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