[CorgiPaws]

Okay, so I am at my wits end with Grissom and his diarrhea. I'm looking for any and all suggestions.
I got Grissom New Years Eve at 8 weeks old. Other than an umbilical hernia, he was tip-top shape, perfectly healthy. His breeder had him on Pedigree, so I made the switch to Wellness Just for Puppy immediately. Switch went flawless, no loose stools. He was on Wellness until February, when I started ordering my food from my current job. I put him on Innova Puppy because I get it wholesale, and we dont carry Wellness. He was getting 50% Innova, 50% wild game meat. Again, transition went flawless. No loose stool.
He was always solid, and then around August he developed a poop eating habit, which is a whole other topic that has be absolutely at my wits end. Around this time, he developed occasional diarrhea, that he ONLY got after eating the poop, so I want overly concerned.
As time went on, it just got worse and worse. I put him on raw, but that only lasted for two weeks before I was kicked out of the freezer by my grandparents. I have no choice in my living situation to feed kibble. I fully intend to return to raw in January when I move out. As for now, this is not an option.
After going off of the short bout of raw, I put him on Evo Red Meat. He had constant black diarrhea. I was not over feeding, he was only getting 1/3 cup twice a day, which is slightly less than the Innova I was feeding. He was losing weight fast, so I fed a little more. The more I fed, the worse his stools got, and he kept losing weight. At this point I had a fecal sample run for parasites. Clear.
I fasted him for a day, did rice for a day (yeah, I know, ZERO nutritional value, but it pushed everything through his digestive tract) and put him on California Natural Herring and Sweet Potato. Because his stools were already so terrible, and he was a mess already, I transitioned him very quickly, over only about 7-10 days time.
He was 100% solid for about 5 days, even with the occasional poop eating, and I really thought we had figured it out. Wrong. Out of nowhere the diarrhea came back with a vengence. I was not enjoying the ocean breath from the Herring food, and bought him Cali Nat Lamb and Rice after about a month. Oddly, after yet another switch, he was solid for about 4 days, and then back to diarrhea. I tried giving him a little yogurt for the probiotics with his PM feeding, and about a week ago, started him on a pretty strong probiotic from Animal Naturals. After buying Restore ProBiotic from Animal Naturals, he again was solid for a few days- then back to runny pudding poo.
This is Grissom's entire nutritional history. I do not do treats. I do RMBs as meal replacements on Sunday to help keep their teeth clean without issues.
I'm at a loss. It seems like every time I change something- he does a little better, then back to total diarrhea, usually bloody. Even on good days, his first poo in the morning will be solid, and they get gradually softer as the day goes on. he used to poo about three times a day (and this was on 3 meals a day as a puppy) and now he eats twice a day and poos probably about 6 or 7 times a day. He can not hold it through the night, he is having to say outside because they are already not welcome where I am living- my grandparents are tolerating it because they know I am moving in three months. However, diarrhea in the house is going to get him a one way ticket out of there. It's snowing at night, and although he has a insulated dog house that I built with my grandpa, I hate that he's out there. It's too cold.
I'm taking him back to the vet at 5pm today, and I guess having all the tests run again even though they came back clear last time. I'm pretty sure he'll recommend Science Diet and antibiotics, which goes against everything I know... but I need a solution, and I need it fast.
Champ, who is ALWAYS solid. ALWAYS. And has been solid throughout this whole two month ordeal, has total water poo today. The kind that splashes when it hits the ground. I'm on a very tight budget until the end of December, and I can't really afford to be running both of them to the vet all the time, nor can I afford to move out of where I'm at because my grandparents are on the verge of kicking the dogs out. I can NOT lose my boys, but with them alreayd not liking dogs, and now the dogs having diarrhea all over the place, I'm on a thin line.

ANY suggestions welcome. I will try just about anything at this point. I wish I could just put them on raw, I wish the guidelines where I'm living weren't so incredibly stupid. Unfortunate circumstances put me there, and I can't leave yet.

 

[chowder]

I feel so sorry for you and the baby.....I've been thru that with Chelsy having horrible bloody diarhea and everyone in the house getting mad at her when she can't really help it.

With Chelsy it took me years to find out what was causing her the bad colitis. We finally decided it was any food with olive oil, salmon oil, or salmon. If she gets any food with those things in it, she will get terribly sick. It sounds like Grissom has developed colitis and certain things set it off. It may take going thru all the foods he has eaten and comparing their ingredients to see if there is a common thing in any of them. He might be reacting to an ingredient after a few days when it builds up in his system. When you do a food allergy test on dogs they say it can take 3 months to get all the old food out of their system so I imagine it can take a few days for them to react to enough stimulus.

Chelsy can not eat any of the foods Rocky does ...Orijen and Merrick almost killed her. She can eat wellness canned venison, Innova Senior Plus dry, and Natural Recipe Venison (Not the best food but she actually does well on it.) I have given her California Natural canned and she does okay but only the chicken version.

Don't know if that will help you at all. When she has a bad bout I give her immodium. I never give her the Flagyl the vets want to use because I had a dog react really badly to it and die. Immodium and pure Wellness canned usually will get her thru a bout.

Hope the vet is able to help you a little more.

 

[DaneMama]

It might be a pancreatic deficiency...have you done bloodwork on him recently?

EVO can be way too rich for some dogs, mine did not do all that well on it and had regular diarrhea.

 

[RawFedDogs]

It might be a pancreatic deficiency...have you done bloodwork on him recently?

I also thought of pancreas and liver as I was reading your post.

 

[CorgiPaws]

It might be a pancreatic deficiency...have you done bloodwork on him recently?

EVO can be way too rich for some dogs, mine did not do all that well on it and had regular diarrhea.

In August I had full blood profile, urinalysis, and had a fecal run for parasites. Spent a couple hundred dollars to find out that on paper he's fine.
I figured the EVO was just too rich, which is why I took him off of it and put him on Cali Natural to help him settle. I'm not a huge fan of Cali Nat for extended periods of time, but it's pretty gentile on the tummy, and I felt that's what he needed. I have enough California Natural Lamb and Rice to get me through December.


Chowder- thanks for the tips on what helped your baby. I've not been as concerned as maybe what I should be, because other than the poo, he acts and appears entirely healthy. Energy level through the roof, keeps himself hydrated, healthy appetite, bright, clear eyes. Normal gums. Silky healthy coat. He is the picture perfect little boy, until he has a bowel movement. Then it's like all hell has broken loose.


I guess I'll know more after the vet tonight. Hopefully. That's what I thought last time. I'm having them BOTH tested for all parasites, having bloodwork done as well as urinalysis. Hopefully something will show up somewhere. I'm terrified that my grandparents, who already hate dogs and think I waste too much time and money on mine, are going to kick the dogs out. Moving back in with family has stripped me of my independence, and I am afraid my poor boys will get the worst of it. :frown: I feel like I've failed them. I know Grissom is totally potty trained. He can't help it. I tried to explain this to my grandpa. "When YOU have diarreah, how much warning do you get?!" but it's no use. He doesn't get it. He's tired of the poo. I am too, but I understand it's not his fault. I let him out every hour, sometimes more, and there's still accidents. he's officially banished from the house.:frown:

 

[BabyHusky]

ur poor pup....:frown:

good luck at the vet tonight! let us know how it goes. me and my furkids are praying for you guys.

 

[CorgiPaws]

I also thought of pancreas and liver as I was reading your post.

I had bloodwork done in August, and will have it again today. I will mention this specificly to the vet, hopefully some kind of solution can be made.
I don't know a whole lot about pancreas and liver issues. More familur with kidney.
Would it be typical over this length of time for him to be otherwise in perfect condition? Not that he IS in perfect condition, I know there's a big problem here. But as far as energy level, eyes, gums, alertness, hydration, coat and skin health, etc. all perfect.

 

[DaneMama]

I had bloodwork done in August, and will have it again today. I will mention this specificly to the vet, hopefully some kind of solution can be made.
I don't know a whole lot about pancreas and liver issues. More familur with kidney.
Would it be typical over this length of time for him to be otherwise in perfect condition? Not that he IS in perfect condition, I know there's a big problem here. But as far as energy level, eyes, gums, alertness, hydration, coat and skin health, etc. all perfect.

Ask your vet to something called Tylan Powder. Its a powdered, low dose antibiotic that you sprinkle on Grissom's food. We have had several dogs come into work that have serious, chronic diarrhea problems and get better when using this. Its something that you give to with every meal to help with colitis (which it sounds like that is really the problem if you have done bloodwork that has come back clean). Eventually when you get it under control, you can start to back down the dose and hopefully get rid of the dependency, but it sounds like he will have lifelong problems with diarrhea. He just has a REALLY sensitive system and there is not a whole lot you can do about it. Hopefully this helps.

 

[pokey]

Tylan Powder has been a life saver for my dog with colitis. She will have a bout and after a few doses of Tylan, she is good again. If I let the diarrhea go too long trying to let it clear on its own, she needs a longer course of the Tylan. Knock on wood, she hasn't had a flair up in almost 6 months!!

If you google colitis in canines you will find a good amount of information. Ask you vet about it while there today. You may want to try a few weeks of the bland diet or the Hill's RX food from the vet to give your dogs gut time to heal. Yes, I hate the vet's food, but for short term it is okay to use, especially if you don't want to deal with cooking for him.

As far as sprinking Tylan on the food, it is my understanding it has a very bitter taste. My dog gets it sprinkles in apple sauce between meals.

 

[DaneMama]

I haven't heard specifically if its super bitter, but must antibiotics are...so its probably helpful to mix it with something super tasty...

 

[rannmiller]

I know it's weird, but I knew a lady who had a malamute puppy who had chronic diarrhea for the first ten months of his life and she had tried several natural dog foods. Finally she gave Blue Buffalo lamb and rice formula a try and combined it Solid Gold D-zymes and she said his diarrhea stopped almost instantly.

Good luck with Grissom, it's getting cold here at night :frown:

 

[CorgiPaws]

Okay, just got back from the vet. I'm really annoyed.
She ran the fecal sample, and as I was afraid, it came back entirely normal. She said there were a few spores in it, nothing that should raise concern, especially for such an ongoing problem.
He also had little a little tiny sore by his mouth that showed up about three days ago. I didn't think anything of it because he's always getting little scrapes and scratches at daycare. It's what dogs do.
Well, she wanted to take a skin scraping, so I did that. It came back as a type of mite, she said not not really contagious at all, it's moreso a sign of an immune Deficiency which means digestive issues make a whole lot more sense.
She did exactly what I thought she would and prescribed Metronidazole (antibiotic used to treat IBD and colitis) twice a day for ten days. She also told me to stop my probiotic immediately.
I don't know how I feel about this. Grissom has never been on any kind of antibiotic before. In fact, all he's ever had as far as medicine is one pain killer after getting neutered, but he always acted totally fine so I did not continue with the three days worth they sent home. I've heard the horror stories of antibiotics, and the damage they can do. I'm torn on if I should give them to him or not.
She did not want to do bloodwork this time. She said if no improvement by friday, then we'll talk about more tests.
I asked about the Powder, she didn't know much about it, and felt that the antibiotics were the best route.
There is not a holistic vet near here, and since I don't go to the vet often, and never really have issues with my dogs other than this one, I haven't been too concerned. I have gone with the one that was most recommended by people I know and online reviews, as well as the most affordable in the area. They were one in the same.
She also gave me Goodwinol Ointment for his skin lesions. She told me twice a day, then the bottle says once a day. They're conveniently closed now so I can't even call and ask. Honestly, I think she didn't want to do loodwork beacuse my appointment was at five, they close at six, and by that time it was going on 5:45p.
I hate going to the vet. I hate it. I feel like I never leave with any answers. I was hoping that they could at least tell me what the issue is, so I could find a holistic answer. Nope. "Fecal is clear, here, have antibiotics!" pfft.

 

[DaneMama]

Okay, just got back from the vet. I'm really annoyed.
She ran the fecal sample, and as I was afraid, it came back entirely normal. She said there were a few spores in it, nothing that should raise concern, especially for such an ongoing problem.
He also had little a little tiny sore by his mouth that showed up about three days ago. I didn't think anything of it because he's always getting little scrapes and scratches at daycare. It's what dogs do.
Well, she wanted to take a skin scraping, so I did that. It came back as a type of mite, she said not not really contagious at all, it's moreso a sign of an immune Deficiency which means digestive issues make a whole lot more sense.
She did exactly what I thought she would and prescribed Metronidazole (antibiotic used to treat IBD and colitis) twice a day for ten days. She also told me to stop my probiotic immediately.
I don't know how I feel about this. Grissom has never been on any kind of antibiotic before. In fact, all he's ever had as far as medicine is one pain killer after getting neutered, but he always acted totally fine so I did not continue with the three days worth they sent home. I've heard the horror stories of antibiotics, and the damage they can do. I'm torn on if I should give them to him or not.
She did not want to do bloodwork this time. She said if no improvement by friday, then we'll talk about more tests.
I asked about the Powder, she didn't know much about it, and felt that the antibiotics were the best route.
There is not a holistic vet near here, and since I don't go to the vet often, and never really have issues with my dogs other than this one, I haven't been too concerned. I have gone with the one that was most recommended by people I know and online reviews, as well as the most affordable in the area. They were one in the same.
She also gave me Goodwinol Ointment for his skin lesions. She told me twice a day, then the bottle says once a day. They're conveniently closed now so I can't even call and ask. Honestly, I think she didn't want to do loodwork beacuse my appointment was at five, they close at six, and by that time it was going on 5:45p.
I hate going to the vet. I hate it. I feel like I never leave with any answers. I was hoping that they could at least tell me what the issue is, so I could find a holistic answer. Nope. "Fecal is clear, here, have antibiotics!" pfft.

WOW...you NEED a new vet.

If she hasn't even heard of Tylan Powder...makes me question her knowledge. Its very widely used and every vet that I know, knows what it is and how to use it. Not sure if you can get it over the counter.

Most dogs have mites. Its just when they do have a depressed immune system that you see the signs. Probably unrelated.

Metronidazole is a pretty safe drug, and it really does help. Not only is it an antibiotic, but its an anti-infammatory to help with colitis. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I give it to my dogs, whenever I notice their stools getting loose and not getting better right away. I would say that you do not need to give it the full lenght of the perscription. Just give it til you see normal stools for two days. This should only take about 4 days, tops. Keep the rest on hand just in case. What dosage of Metronidazole, mg wise???

 

[CorgiPaws]

WOW...you NEED a new vet.

If she hasn't even heard of Tylan Powder...makes me question her knowledge. Its very widely used and every vet that I know, knows what it is and how to use it. Not sure if you can get it over the counter.

She'd heard of it, but I guess doesn't use it. This wasnt my normal vet. Same office, but not the vet I usually see there. Not that I entirely agree with my vet anyway....
There are a LOT more options when I move to Vegas. I will find a vet I really like here. Where I'm at options are so few.

Most dogs have mites. Its just when they do have a depressed immune system that you see the signs. Probably unrelated.

This is what she said, but he did have two tiny spots, smaller than a dime, both by his mouth, and she took scrapings of both. So is this ointment even necessary? It smells like rubber. Looks like crap.

Metronidazole is a pretty safe drug, and it really does help. Not only is it an antibiotic, but its an anti-infammatory to help with colitis. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I give it to my dogs, whenever I notice their stools getting loose and not getting better right away. I would say that you do not need to give it the full lenght of the perscription. Just give it til you see normal stools for two days. This should only take about 4 days, tops. Keep the rest on hand just in case. What dosage of Metronidazole, mg wise???

See, I'm confused. She gave me ten days worth, but also wants me to check back with her Friday if I don't see improvement. I have no idea when I am supposed to see anything happen.
The bottle says 250MG, but they're cut in half, and I give one half AM, one half PM. He is 19lbs.

 

[rannmiller]

I hear Jolie Pope at American Paws is fantastic and I think there's supposed to be a holistic vet in Bountiful. But I also know those are both pretty far from you. Upon google searching though, I'm having a very hard time finding the alleged holistic vet in Bountiful and the American Paws website is completely useless.

 

[CorgiPaws]

I hear Jolie Pope at American Paws is fantastic and I think there's supposed to be a holistic vet in Bountiful. But I also know those are both pretty far from you. Upon google searching though, I'm having a very hard time finding the alleged holistic vet in Bountiful and the American Paws website is completely useless.

I had this problem today, too. I was searching for a holistic vet, but everything online was incredibly outdated. I have not heard of American Paws, and Bountiful is a little over an hour away from me, but I can make that work. Thanks for the info, I will definately look into that... if I can actually find any info.
Utah in general is not very holistic. Not many health food stores, holistic offices for people, let alone vets. I don't like conventional medicine, especially antibiotics!! I had in internal MRSA attack that really almost killed me, and things like this are caused by antibiotics being overused. Poor Grissom, I just wnt to do what's best for him. I spent $106 today and left knowing nothing I didn't know going in reguarding his diarrhea. So frustrating.

 

[rannmiller]

I'd recommend giving the antibiotics a try since you paid for them and for the advice, and danemama says it's ok.

Have you heard of Dancing Cats Feline Health Center in SLC? the vet there is partially holistic and that's where I am working now. So far I really love it there and wish she wasn't just a feline-only veterinarian so I could take my pups to her too. I think I'm gonna give American Paws a try since it came highly recommended by a fellow raw feeder at work who's been in the area for a while.

 

[chowder]

Metronidazole is the generic name for Flagyl. Technically it's not approved for use in dogs. I lost a puppy last year because he reacted badly to it. They gave it to me for Rocky when he had coccidia when we first got him and he had horrendous diarhea from it. Some dogs react to it so I will never use it again. Here is a quote from Vetinfo.com

"Metronidazole has never been approved for use in dogs and cats but it is used quite frequently to treat giardiasis and inflammatory bowel disorders. It is also used to aid in the treatment of anerobic bacteria in the respiratory tract.

Metronidazole can cause neurologic signs if overdosed, including loss of balance, visual problems, vomiting, rapid eye movements (nystagmus), tremors and seizures."

My dog last year got those neurologic signs within an hour of receiving the drug and it was suppose to be the right dose for his size.

I consider it a 'cure all' choice for when they don't have any idea why the dog has diarrhea.

I know a lot of people use it without any problems but after losing two dogs to drugs last year, I no longer will give them medicine without a definite reason and a proven safety record IN DOGS.

 

[Whiskey's Momma]

I feel so bad for you, hope they get better.

 

[EnglishBullTerriers]

Hey,
I didn't read all the way through all of the posts, but did you have them check for things like Crypto, Campy and other things like that? I know that it ususally takes a couple of days to grow some cultures and stuff, but you might want to see if that says anything. Plus, if it is something like that, you will need to watch the other dogs close because they could get it also and TURST me, you DON"T want that!
At work we get guys with those as well as other things and we give things like Septra, Tylan, Metronidazol and Erythromicine (I think thats how its spelled ). If it is bad enough, we will give a combo of the above mentioned and a 5-10 day cycle of Baytril. All are antibiotics, but it really doesn't sound like food related as much as something going on in his digestive system.
My next question would be, could you put him back on raw? I know that you aren't allowed freezer space, but maybe you could convince them to give you a bottom drawyer of the frige. Then you can just but about a weeks worth of chicken....etc, until you move. That way the meat that you buy for Griss won't go bad in that amount of time and he can have what his body might be more willing to accept. Just a suggestion.
If not, then at least try to get something to get rid of the diarrhea for about a week and then find a good food that he can eat and keep him on it till you move. If he starts with diarrhea again, keep him on the same food and find a 'dog pepto' and see if that at least keeps him a little more comfy. I know that when Owen went on raw, now if he even eats a little kibble he will explode out the back end for a day or two.
Good luck and give poor Griss a good scratch behind the ears!