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Hello!
I've recently joined dogfoodchat.com and the information I've picked up on is amazing. I believe each reply to a post is very subjective, thus I'd like your views on this:

I'll be getting my miniature schnauzer next week and she's been fed Eukanuba since she was born. Her fur and skin looked fine when I inspected her but I heard that Eukanuba is considered a :eek: low grade food. Thus I've researched on other kibbles and would like to make a switch to one or two of these choices:
(I'm also thinking long term)

a) Artemis Small Breed Adult Dog Food
Chicken, Turkey, Chicken Meal, Salmon Meal, Pearled Barley, Whole Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Oatmeal, Millet, Potatoes, Dried Egg, Tomato Pomace, Salmon, Flaxseed, Natural Chicken Flavor, Salmon Oil (A Source of DHA), Choline Chloride, Dried Chicory Root, Kelp, Carrots, Peas, Apples, Tomatoes, Blueberries, Spinach, Cranberry Powder, Rosemary Extract, Parsley Flake, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Barley Grass Extract, L-carnitine, Enterococcus Faecieum, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Saccharomyces Cerevesiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid.

b) Blue Buffalo Wilderness Dog Food
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Potato Starch, Turkey Meal, Whitefish Meal, Salmon Meal, Tomato Pomace (natural source of Lycopene), Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Oatmeal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Shidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Turmeric, Herring Oil (natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Fructooligosaccharides, Monooligosaccharides, Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin C, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin (Vitamin B3), Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1), Folic Acid, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Calcium Chloride, Zinc Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Zinc), Iron Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Iron), Copper Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Copper), Manganese Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Manganese), Potassium Amino Acid Complex (source of Chelated Potassium), Cobalt Proteinate (source of Chelated Cobalt), Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Salt, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Bifidobacterium longum, Enterococcus faecium.

c) Horizon Legacy Adult Dog Food
Fresh chicken meat, chicken meal, salmon meal, turkey meal, pea starch concentrate, green split peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, rosemary, citric acid), whole eggs, flaxseed, salmon oil, dried alfalfa, carrots, apples, broccoli, bok choy, cabbage, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, dried kelp, dried pumpkin meal, colostrum, sea buckthorn, fenugreek protein meal, dried pomegranate, dried astragalus root, dried milk thistle, glucosamine HCl, chondroitin sulphate, garlic, enzymes (dried aspergillus oryzae fermentation extract, dried aspergillus niger extract, pineapple, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation product, rhizopus oryzae), probiotics (dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium bifidum fermentation product, and dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product), yucca schidigera extract, mannan oligosaccharide (MOS), burdock root extract (FOS), vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, vitamin B12, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, d-calcium pantothenate, biotin, vitamin C (ascorbyl phosphate), ferrous sulphate, iron proteinate*, zinc sulphate, zinc proteinate*, manganous oxide, manganese proteinate*, copper sulphate, copper proteinate*, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, seleno methionine, magnesium oxide.

d) Wellness Core Ocean Dog Food
Whitefish, Whitefish Meal, Salmon Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potato, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Pea Fiber, Tomato Pomace, Natural Fish Flavor, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins & Minerals, Choline Chloride, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Products, Rosemary Extract.

e) Wellness Core Dog Food
Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potato, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Canola Oil, Chicken Liver, Salmon Oil, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins & Minerals, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus

I've bold the first 5 ingredients, and I would like your feedback! They would be very very much appreciated :biggrin:

I'm also concern if the switch would be too drastic and would the protein levels be too high for a small dog?(Though I've heard that its okay to feed your dog high levels of protein, but does size play a part too??)
Also, I've chanced upon posts that people like to feed rice/kibbles containing rice when their dogs have soft stools/diarrhea. Is it alright to do that since many have said that one would rather pick grainless kibbles over grained kibbles :confused:

I'm so sorry for such a long post! But..
THANKS A TRUCK LOAD!!! :biggrin:
 

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High protein is fine for small dogs, I don't know where people get these "facts" from. I have a 14 year old 19 lb terrier mix, and his rotation is Orijen, Evo, Horizon Legacy, and soon to be Wellness Core. he does AWESOME on them.

I'd say you have picked decent food out of any of those 5 choices, but only Horizon, and Wellness Core (both), are grain free. So I'd say try out those 3 first, as grains are biologically inappropriate. I REALLY like Horizon.

Oh and about switching him over, just do it slowly, 25% new food/75% old food, then 50/50, then 75/25, then 100% new food over the course of a week to a month as each dog is different. What's funny is I just cold turkey switched my dog to these grain free brands, and he never had any gastrointestinal maladies.

Also, I've chanced upon posts that people like to feed rice/kibbles containing rice when their dogs have soft stools/diarrhea.

What people do is feed boiled chicken and rice for any upset stomach/diarrhea symptoms, though I don't have any experience, as my dog now and in the past have never had serious issues that I can recall.
 

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I would go with grain free as well, I've tried BB wilder. Horizon and Core and my dog liked all 3, currently he's on HL and does well on it, although they recently changed their formula and lowered protein levels to 35% (I think) instead of 40%
 

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Mine eat Core original and do well on it. The others you listed I haven't tried because they were not readily available to me, except for the Core Oceanfish, which was fine with them, once they reluctantly ate it (they're not huge fish fans). I have to say, and I cannot think of why, but my two do the same on the Core as they did when I was feeding them raw. They poop just as much, their coats are just as shiny and soft, their teeth are the same (but I do brush them too)...
 

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Mine eat Core original and do well on it. The others you listed I haven't tried because they were not readily available to me, except for the Core Oceanfish, which was fine with them, once they reluctantly ate it (they're not huge fish fans). I have to say, and I cannot think of why, but my two do the same on the Core as they did when I was feeding them raw. They poop just as much, their coats are just as shiny and soft, their teeth are the same (but I do brush them too)...
whyd you stop feeding your dogs raw? is your dogs on the new wellness core? ive ehard diamond took over and now the ingredients are worse.

i see so many mixed things about high proteinfood i see that high protein food is good for your dog, and will never be bad. as long as you dont overfeed, the higher protein the better. but then i see things saying that innova evo or,orijen are too rich for dogs no matter how little they feed.

all i know is i saw a video of a dog eating innova evo red meat, and he had to have his food in an icecube tray so he didnt eat it too fast, cause it was so good he kept attacking it.
 

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whyd you stop feeding your dogs raw? is your dogs on the new wellness core? ive ehard diamond took over and now the ingredients are worse.

i see so many mixed things about high proteinfood i see that high protein food is good for your dog, and will never be bad. as long as you dont overfeed, the higher protein the better. but then i see things saying that innova evo or,orijen are too rich for dogs no matter how little they feed.

all i know is i saw a video of a dog eating innova evo red meat, and he had to have his food in an icecube tray so he didnt eat it too fast, cause it was so good he kept attacking it.
The biggest reason I stopped was because of living arrangements and it just wasn't possible anymore. My fiance is an OTR truck driver and I had been going with him with the dogs, and we had no way to keep meat from spoiling. We didn't have a fridge or anything in the truck. And when I started staying home with them, we were in a bit of a rut, and staying with his family, and they wouldn't allow us to keep our own things in the fridge or freezer (which was just a bunch of bs the whole time we were there), everything we bought had to be shared, these people were just... i dunno, but I'm glad we're not there anymore lol. But anyway, so it's just kibble and fresh foods when I can swing it. I'll probably switch back to raw eventually when I know we can stick with it.
I hadn't heard that Core was bought by Diamond. I know they are now owned by Eagle Pack, is that a branch of Diamond? But I had also heard nothing from anyone I know that feeds Wellness about the ingredients changing or any digestive upset that would have resulted either, so I'm curious to hear more about that. I'd hate to come across any problems.
My opinion is kind of up in the air about how much protien is too much. Personally, I'm happy with the 34% in Core, because I just have 2 chihuahuas, who aren't extremely active. They chase each other around the house, and I take them for a 2 mile walk at least every other day, if I can't get out every day. Part of the reason I joined this forum is to build a stronger understanding of things like that. Hopefully we'll both get some good answers :)
 

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Hello!
I'll be getting my miniature schnauzer next week and she's been fed Eukanuba since she was born. Her fur and skin looked fine when I inspected her but I heard that Eukanuba is considered a :eek: low grade food. Thus I've researched on other kibbles and would like to make a switch to one or two of these choices:
(I'm also thinking long term)
Well forst of all, congratulations on the new addition!! We expect pictures as soon as you bring the little girl home!!! Switching her off of that low grade food will be your first move as a great new puppy owner.

They are all great foods, and you definately could not go wrong with any single one of them! Some grain-free foods are a bit rich, and can cause some tummy upset, but definately give them a fair try, just be aware.
What I would do if I were you, is use them all! Variety is key in any kind of diet, and I think it's really important to have a strong rotation of great foods, rather than stick to one food for the entirety of the dog's life. Of those, I would jsut pick whatever is closest to you, most affordable, etc. and start there, and rotate to a different one in a couple months. No need to pick jsut one!!

I'm also concern if the switch would be too drastic and would the protein levels be too high for a small dog?
Don't be concerned with that especially with small dogs. It'll be just fine.


Also, I've chanced upon posts that people like to feed rice/kibbles containing rice when their dogs have soft stools/diarrhea. Is it alright to do that since many have said that one would rather pick grainless kibbles over grained kibbles :confused:
A lot of people do this because the rice can bind up the stools making them ore solid... but it is just a quick, temporary fix to mask a problem and doesn't really get to the root of the issue. Rice is entirely unnecessary, and dogs can't even extract nutrients, so it is nothing but a filler. To firm up stools, I recommend using raw bones rather than rice. Much more natural way to go about it, and far more specied appropriate.
 

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High protein is a good thing for any dog of any age. But the thing you have to watch out for when you have a growing puppy is the calcium/phosphorus ratio. You want to keep them low.

Here is some info regarding high protein from Orijen:
PROTEIN QUANTITY
There has been much anecdotal
argument about the ideal amount of
protein in the diet of dogs and cats.
And while a decade ago it was thought that too
much protein could lead to health problems, this
myth has been roundly dismissed by the
scientific community.
Contrary to myths and popular beliefs, feeding a
high-protein diet is healthy for dogs of any age,
including puppies of all breeds and sizes,
seniors, and overweight dogs.
Studies have proven that protein does not cause
orthopedic problems in puppies, nor does it lead
to kidney disease in older dogs.
In fact, protein is extremely beneficial: it
supports the immune system and the central
nervous system, contributes to wound healing,
helps build lean muscle, and is required for skin
and coat health.
Dogs and cats thrive on protein, the more the
better. There is absolutely no reason to limit the
amount of protein you feed your dog.
Let’s review of few of the most commonly held
protein myths.
MYTH #1. PROTEIN EFFECTS THE
KIDNEYS
There is no association between
high protein diets and kidney
disease in dogs.
A number of false assumptions about the need
for reduced protein intake in regard to renal
disease have been perpetuated in the literature
for many years, including:
• Increased urea load causes increased
workload for the kidneys.
• High dietary protein intake injures
kidneys.
• High dietary protein intake causes
hyperkalemia.
• High dietary protein intake causes
acidosis.
• Protein intake results in uremic toxins
• Reduced protein intake slows the
progression of renal disease.23
Research on dietary protein and the kidney has
shown that protein does not cause renal failure
and that dietary protein does not appear to be
involved in the progression of chronic renal
failure.
• The ability of excess dietary protein to
induce renal pathology was studied in both
dogs with chronic kidney failure and older
dogs without kidney failure. Numerous
studies have confirmed that protein does not
adversely affect the kidneys.24
• The same research also found that the
restriction of dietary protein may actually
have an adverse effect on the kidney.
The University of Pennsylvania conducted a
study to determine whether large amounts of
dietary protein leads to sustained kidney
damage in dogs.
• Dogs were fed diets varying between 19, 27
and 56% protein over the 4 year study
period.
• The study concluded that high protein
feeding did not adversely effect the kidney
function of dogs.25
23 Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with
Reduced Renal Function, Kenneth C. Bovée, DVM,
MMedSc Department of Clinical Studies, School of
Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Proceedings, 1998
Purina Nutrition Forum
24 Pet Food Safety: Dietary Protein, D.P.
Laflamme DVM, PhD, Dipl ACVN, Nestlé Purina
PetCare Research, St. Louis, MO. Available
online 23 July 2008.
25 Long-term renal responses to high dietary protein
in dogs with 75% nephrectomy, John L Robertson,
Michael Goldschmidt, David S Kronfeld, John E
Tomaszewski, Gary S Hill and Kenneth C Bovee,
School of Veterinary Medicine and School of
Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania, and Baltimore City Hospitals,
Baltimore, Maryland, USA, Revised 23 May 1985.
MYTH #2. PROTEIN MAKES
PUPPIES GROW TOO FAST
There is no direct link between
high protein and skeletal
development of puppies and
growing dogs of any size or
breed.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
WOW, Im so glad there's such a thing called internet and doggy forum!! Im definitely going to note all the tips you guys have given me. Thank you :D

>CorgiPaws:
THANK YOU, my whole family's excited for the new arrival, we're expecting her in 2days time and I'll definitely upload pictures of her!!!! About feeding raw bones instead of rice during times of stomach upset, should i crush them to pieces for easier chewing and can i mix them with kibble??

>PUNKem733
THANKS for that very important tip, i used to thought it was only over a period of 2-3days! Wow, you sure've got a tough doggie over there!!

>lilbabyvenus
Me too! We all want the best for our doggies! I'd like to try raw someday too, but its just not convenient for me right now. Im intending to brush her teeth too, do you brush her gums and tongue?

>CorgiPaws, PUNKem733
Im not sure if i should do rotation cause I've heard that it leads to picky dogs, and i dont want that to happen, but Im afraid my dog will be bored by her food. However, I read a book saying that dogs dont get bored eating the same food.. and then i read another book saying that dogs need variety and do get bored eating the same food. So Im kinda confused and need your views on this!

Is it also true that the smaller the ingredients list the better?
Plus, if i were to only feed wellness core ocean dog feed, am i depriving my dog of chicken/lamb/beef meat? or do they do well on just fish alone?

>mstngchic2012, Unosmom
Thanks for the protein tip :)
I've check the protein levels, Artemis is about 25%, BB 42%, HL 40% and WC 34%
Im not sure if the site updated it though. Artesmis protein levels seems to be too low(??)
 

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>lilbabyvenus
Me too! We all want the best for our doggies! I'd like to try raw someday too, but its just not convenient for me right now. Im intending to brush her teeth too, do you brush her gums and tongue?
I can brush my girls, because she really doesn't mind. But my boys, I'm lucky to even get in there lol He absolutely hates it, so I just get whatever I can, as good as I can.
 

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I have a problem with Wellness Core being made by American Nutrition....the makers of Atta Boy!

Blue Buffalo has been involved in to many recalls, suspcious activities and law suits. The company is out of Connecticut, but there food is made all over the country, including Dad's which is where I believe Wildnerness is made. I'll have to email the company to confirm this.

Horizen is alright. Definitely the best company you listed.

Artemis is made by Diamond Pet foods....same company that makes Diamond


Here is the thing....you've selected foods based on ingredient content, but not the nutrient breakdown as well. Plus, based on the foods you've selected, you are already hitting a premium price tag. Why not feed Orijen, Acana or Evo? Anybody can contract a dog food manufactuer, and have a dog food made, slap a premium price tag on it and sell it at Petco. Why not go the extra step for the same money and buy a dog food made in a family owned facility like Orijen, Evo, Merrick? These companies take that extra step in assuring you are getting what you paid for.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
We dont have orijen, evo and merrick over here :( and thanks for that information, helped me narrow down my food choices even more. I guess i have to trail and error and see what works for my girl :) THANK YOU!
 

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I do not agree with those who have jumped on this "grain free" fad. First, all grains are not equal. Second, the carbohydrates used in the grain free foods (mostly peas and potatoes) are no more nutritious or digestible (in fact they are less) than the best grains (Oats and Brown Rice) and for those who use the justification that wild dogs did not eat grains - I don't think they dug potatoes or picked peas either so that holds no water. With the exception of Artemis, those that you listed have about the same percentages of Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates. You have an out of date ingredient list for Blue Wilderness. They have eliminated all grains and have jumped on the grain free wagon.

Protein Fat Moisture Ash Carbohydrate
Blue 34 15 10 8 33
Horizon 34 15 10 8 33
Wellness 34 14 10 8 34
Artemis 25 15 10 8 42
 

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I do not agree with those who have jumped on this "grain free" fad. First, all grains are not equal. Second, the carbohydrates used in the grain free foods (mostly peas and potatoes) are no more nutritious or digestible (in fact they are less) than the best grains (Oats and Brown Rice) and for those who use the justification that wild dogs did not eat grains - I don't think they dug potatoes or picked peas either so that holds no water. With the exception of Artemis, those that you listed have about the same percentages of Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates. You have an out of date ingredient list for Blue Wilderness. They have eliminated all grains and have jumped on the grain free wagon.

Protein Fat Moisture Ash Carbohydrate
Blue 34 15 10 8 33
Horizon 34 15 10 8 33
Wellness 34 14 10 8 34
Artemis 25 15 10 8 42

Dude you are wrong. All dogs need is meat, bones and some organs. The only reason most grains are in dog food is filler, and for potatoes, and peas those would be used as binders.
 

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I do not agree with those who have jumped on this "grain free" fad. First, all grains are not equal. Second, the carbohydrates used in the grain free foods (mostly peas and potatoes) are no more nutritious or digestible (in fact they are less) than the best grains (Oats and Brown Rice) and for those who use the justification that wild dogs did not eat grains - I don't think they dug potatoes or picked peas either so that holds no water.
From strictly a carbohydrate point-of-view, I totally agree with this post. After trying all sorts of low-grain and "grain free" (note that "grain free" isn't necessarily "filler free"), this is the reason I just gave up on kibble and went with prey-model raw.

But for dogs who have allergies to certain grains, which is unfortunately all too common, and for owners who aren't willing to go raw, "grain free" kibble (using potatoes, peas, and other non-grain fillers) are the only way to go since allergies to these types of fillers seem less common. We won't talk about diabetes though. :wink:
 

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I have a problem with Wellness Core being made by American Nutrition....the makers of Atta Boy!
How do you find out info like that. I had tried to look into it, and all I know is last year they were bought by Eagle Pack (and they are all now Well Pet). Is there somewhere online that tells you where all the "Well Pet" brands are being produced? I'm all paranoid about what I'm feeding my dogs now lol
 

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How do you find out info like that. I had tried to look into it, and all I know is last year they were bought by Eagle Pack (and they are all now Well Pet). Is there somewhere online that tells you where all the "Well Pet" brands are being produced? I'm all paranoid about what I'm feeding my dogs now lol


Actually WellPet bought Eagle Pack and all of its holdings.


To find out info on where the food is actually made, just contact the dog food company. They will tell you. Wellness is made by American Nutrition, Diamond Pet Foods and CJ Foods.
 

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I do not agree with those who have jumped on this "grain free" fad. First, all grains are not equal. Second, the carbohydrates used in the grain free foods (mostly peas and potatoes) are no more nutritious or digestible (in fact they are less) than the best grains (Oats and Brown Rice) and for those who use the justification that wild dogs did not eat grains - I don't think they dug potatoes or picked peas either so that holds no water. With the exception of Artemis, those that you listed have about the same percentages of Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates. You have an out of date ingredient list for Blue Wilderness. They have eliminated all grains and have jumped on the grain free wagon.

Protein Fat Moisture Ash Carbohydrate
Blue 34 15 10 8 33
Horizon 34 15 10 8 33
Wellness 34 14 10 8 34
Artemis 25 15 10 8 42


You mentioned brown rice as a "good" grain, but brown rice contains gluten.

As far as grain free being high in Carbs....Orijen and Evo are only 20% carb.


A big problem with grain food is that it is high in fiber. I consider anything over 2.5% high in fiber. Grains also "cheat" the protein percentage. Although you get protein from certain grains, these are not the best sources of protein for the dog as the dog will not be able to absorb them all like a quality meat source in say Orijen or Evo.
 

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They are all good foods. Artemis is much lower in protein (25%) than the others (34%). I do not agree with the "grain free" advocates. The grain free foods have the same percentage of carbohydrates (except for Artemis) and the carbohydrate is white potato (not to be confused with sweet potato). If they were lower in carbohydrates, that would be a different matter. For my money, Brown Rice and Oats are much better carbohydrates than white potatoes. All grains are not equal. I do not like corn, wheat and soy, but to say all grains are bad is ridiculous. Incidentally Blue Wilderness is now "grain free." You have an old ingredient list.
 
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