[schtuffy]

So this random guy at the park was talking to me this morning, and somehow we got on the subject of feeding Orijen. He said that his vet told him, "Dogs that eat high protein (32% or higher) diets don't live as long. Now I know about the liver/kidney damage myths that are out there on the internet, but I don't think I have heard anyone say that it is linked to a shorter lifespan From what I have learned I know my gut feeling is telling me this vet is probably wrong, but I was hoping you guys could give me peace of mind.

And I guess while I'm on the subject...Since PMR protein levels are not nearly as high as Orijen levels, why would such a high protein level be good?

 

[3feathers]

Sounds like another myth to me. To my knowledge there has not been any long term feed trials on the grain free diets, so I do not see how the vet could say dogs eating it have shorter life spans, but on the other hand, I guess you couldn't say that dogs live longer eating it also.

 

[DaneMama]

I have yet to see any evidence to support this theory. I would ask your vet for a study or two to look at that can "prove" it.

 

[Unosmom]

Its based on a study conducted using plant based high protein(aka corn) as opposed to meat based food, which is obviously much more difficult for dogs to digest, I wouldnt be suprised is 40% protein corn kibble would lead to liver/kidney problems.

 

[schtuffy]

Its based on a study conducted using plant based high protein(aka corn) as opposed to meat based food, which is obviously much more difficult for dogs to digest, I wouldnt be suprised is 40% protein corn kibble would lead to liver/kidney problems.

I know which study you are talking about, I just hope it's not the one he's referring to, as it seems obvious to me that the study was flawed. Also if that is the case, I don't like how he is spreading around the misinformation :frown:

 

[buddy97]

Its based on a study conducted using plant based high protein(aka corn) as opposed to meat based food, which is obviously much more difficult for dogs to digest, I wouldnt be suprised is 40% protein corn kibble would lead to liver/kidney problems.

it was also done on rodents, not dogs, and used corn gluten as a protein source, so it failed completely to emulate a canine eating a high protein diet comprised mostly of animal meat protein.

 

[buddy97]

And I guess while I'm on the subject...Since PMR protein levels are not nearly as high as Orijen levels, why would such a high protein level be good?

i believe this is not correct.

the protein levels is a raw diet are as high or higher than those in a higher protein kibble. remember, that chicken that is 18% protein has most of its body weight made up of water. to compare that to kibble you have to adjust for that water, making that 18% much, much higher on a dry matter basis. obviously, a canine eating primarily meat is eating a very high protein diet.

 

[RawFedDogs]

i believe this is not correct.

the protein levels is a raw diet are as high or higher than those in a higher protein kibble. remember, that chicken that is 18% protein has most of its body weight made up of water. to compare that to kibble you have to adjust for that water, making that 18% much, much higher on a dry matter basis. obviously, a canine eating primarily meat is eating a very high protein diet.

Derek, figure it in pounds of protein fed instead of percent. I think you will find that raw fed dogs eat fewer pounds of protein vs. high protein kibble. I just finished a half bottle of wine so I can't figure it out using numbers right now. :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[ubershann]

Vets say some very strange things. I had a customer a couple weeks ago who told me their vet said it's not good for dogs to eat anything but kibble. I told her that last I checked, there were no kibble trees in nature so before they became domestic animals they were not wandering the forest in search of kibble. They ate meat.

Another strange customer question was about the various venison based kibbles. She asked where they got the venison and if they just drove around looking for deer by the side of the road that had been hit by cars. I thought she was kidding at first and told her that they get it from farms. Oddly enough, she thought I was kidding about the farms. Apparently roadkill made more sense to her.

 

[xxshaelxx]

I told her that last I checked, there were no kibble trees in nature so before they became domestic animals they were not wandering the forest in search of kibble. They ate meat.

*rolls around laughing* That's great. XD

 

[whiteleo]

Gee, I thought some of the people I deal with everyday are idiots!

 

[ziggy29]

Sounds like a vet who has been misinformed by all those seminars paid for by the big kibble manufacturers who push junk that's loaded with corn and wheat. I know what my dog does when I offer her a hunk of raw meat compared to what she does when I offer her a raw ear of corn, and they aren't the same reaction...

 

[PUNKem733]

Vets say some very strange things. I had a customer a couple weeks ago who told me their vet said it's not good for dogs to eat anything but kibble. I told her that last I checked, there were no kibble trees in nature so before they became domestic animals they were not wandering the forest in search of kibble. They ate meat.

Another strange customer question was about the various venison based kibbles. She asked where they got the venison and if they just drove around looking for deer by the side of the road that had been hit by cars. I thought she was kidding at first and told her that they get it from farms. Oddly enough, she thought I was kidding about the farms. Apparently roadkill made more sense to her.

ROFL!!!!!! Holy shiet, people in general are simpletons.

 

[buddy97]

see if this makes sense. if it doesnt, dont blame me...i didnt write the part in italics, just the bold below it.

Actually, a raw diet is, in most cases, higher in protein than kibble. Let's look at kibble nutritional labels. The package on innova evo's red meat states 42% protein. But that's per 8 oz cup. It doesn't mean it provides the dog with 42% of its required protein. 42% of 8 oz is 3.36. That means the dog is getting 3.36 oz of protein per 8 oz cup. Now according to the label, a 50 lb. dog should be fed 2.2 8 oz cups. That's 7.392 oz of protein. So ingesting 17.6 oz of kibble gives you 7.392 oz of protein. now that's ounces. Raw actually does offer more protein since, depending on the protein source and method fed, your dog will ingest more than 7.392 oz of protein.

PROBLEM-those 8 oz cups are a measure of volume. most 8 oz cups only hold an actual 1/4 lb of dog food. the dog is ingesting 17.6 oz of kibble BY VOLUME. the actual weight of that 17.6 oz of kibble is .55 lbs

42% of that .55 lbs of food = .23 lbs of protein, or just under 1/4 pound of protein.

wouldnt a raw fed dog eat more than 1/4 lb of protein for a day. my senior dog is 50 lbs. she gets about 1 1/2 lbs of raw on days she gets raw. if 1/6th of that 1 1/2 lbs of raw was protein, then she is getting 1/4 pound of protein, the same as the kibble dog.

...and i suspect more than 1/6 of a raw diets weight is going to be protein.

 

[RawFedDogs]

If you have 1 lb of chicken w/ 18% protein, you have .18 lb of protein. Take out the ~.6 lb of water, you still have .18 lb of protein. However it's now its ~ 45% of the remaining "dehydrated" chicken. (.18 lb of protein divided by .4 lb of remaining chicken.)

 

[buddy97]

If you have 1 lb of chicken w/ 18% protein, you have .18 lb of protein. Take out the ~.6 lb of water, you still have .18 lb of protein. However it's now its ~ 45% of the remaining "dehydrated" chicken. (.18 lb of protein divided by .4 lb of remaining chicken.)

so, if the dog is getting 1 1/2 lbs of chicken for the day, that would be roughly .27 lbs of protein...that is actually a bit more than the .23 lbs of protein of the 50 pound kibble eating dog vs my 50 lb raw fed dog as demonstrated in the example above.

since that chicken (minus the water) is in effect 45% protein and the 42% kibble has some water content but very little, they look very close in terms of both dry matter basis protein % as well as total protein consumed.