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Discussion Starter #1
What would you suggest as far as a good dog food for them kibble wise? We have him right now on halo, I'm not that big of a fan of all of the vegetables.
 

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While Taste of the Wild is great, it does not have appropriate Ca:p for a growing puppy.

I recently put my now 15 week old Boxer pup Orijen Large Breed Puppy and have had great success with it. :smile:
 

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Orijen is a great one, but it still has fruits and carbs and such in it. Ziwi Peak is a great one, but ridiculously expensive. Honestly, the only way to eliminate veggies from your pup's diet is to make your own food, which really isn't that hard. But this is the kibble section so I will leave it at that :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It's not the vegetables just that halo is completely vegatbles beside the one meat source. So would ya'll suggest orijen or what? I can't find orijen anywhere.
 

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It's not the vegetables just that halo is completely vegatbles beside the one meat source. So would ya'll suggest orijen or what? I can't find orijen anywhere.
Where have you looked? Generally, where are you located?

It is a rare food, but I feel it is worth it. The closest store to me that carries it is 3 hours away. It stays fresh in the bag up to fourteen months, though, so I stock up. Right now I have enough puppy food to last him until he is ready for adult food. :biggrin:

As for the vegetative ingredients in Orijen, compared to most other premium dog foods, are minimal. As they say on their website, which is the only source available to us on this subject, it is 70% meat.
 

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Grain free foods are generally regarded as being better, but not all of them are formulated for all life stages, so its important to find one that does.
Orijen makes a puppy formula and they also make a food called Acana provincial which is suitable for puppies.

You should also check out Horizon legacy, which is very similar to Orijen.
Make sure to check the manufacturers site for store locations.

If you cant find grain free puppy food, he'll be fine on grain inclusive until 1 year of age, then you can switch to grainless diet. Couple of the good brands are Innova and Wellness.
 

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Forgot to add, you should also look into ordering online, some of those are

Online Pet Supplies, Pet Food, and Pet Products | Over 16,000 Pet Products Available at PetFoodDirect.com

Dog Food | Cat Food | Bird Food | HeartyPet.com

Premium & Organic Dog Food and Dog Treats - Free Shipping

When you go on petfoodirect website and sign up for a newsletter at the top, they'll send you weekly coupons, though I only use the 20% off ones which are the best value.

Heartypet will also send you coupons in the mail and often have the 50% off shipping deals. Right now they are having a 50% off shipping, coupon code: WINTERSHIP (ends jan 5th)
 

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Most people recommend gran free kibbles as they have a reputation of being more species-appropriate. The reality of it is they are too rich for most dogs, and they take the grain out only to pump in the potato... which is just as bad as grains, so IMO they are NOT worth the higher price tag.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as a species appropriate kibble, and every kibble on the market is dangerously high in carbohydrates. However, for some people they feel kibble is the only option, there are options better than others, of course.

Innova
Wellness
California Natural
Solid Gold
Merrick
Blue Buffalo
Taste of the Wild (grain-free)
Orijen (grain-free)
Evo (grain-free)
"Large Breed" Formulas are a marketing gimmick, and waste of money.

Just remember, if you really want what's best, there are other ways of feeding, but in this section, I'll just leave it at that. :wink:
 

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Large breed adult feeds are a gimmick, but large breed puppy feeds are not. It is critical to make sure that the calcium is lower and that the Ca:p is closer to 1:1 than for "normal" puppies.

That is unfortunate that there are no stores nearby. It may be worth it to stock up whenever you head into Atlanta since there are dozens of stores that carry it in that region.

Fortunately, Orijen offers, not samples, but trial sizes that are a full pound.

Orijen Puppy Large Trial Size 1 lb. - $4.00 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

That way you can see if it right for your dog before you buy a truckload of it. :smile:

There are plenty of other appropriate puppy foods out there, such as Innova or Blue Buffalo.

Things I look for when evaluating a puppy food:
1. Ca:p. Look at the analysis and find the calcium and phosphorus levels. Usually, there is a range for each mineral, so take the average for each. Divide the average Ca level by the average P level. This number should not exceed 1.5. Generally, the closer to 1, the better.
2. Ca levels. Never feed a Ca % higher than 2% to a puppy. Ideally, this number is between 1.0% and 1.5%.
3. No "bad" grains. Avoid corn and wheat. Rice and barley are much easier for a dog to process and utilize.
4. High meat. Try to go for at least 3 out of the 5 first ingredients to be named meat products. By-products are fine, but not optimal. There are more easily digested protein in muscle meat than meat scraps and bone.
5. Chelated minerals. The most available minerals to an animal are ones found attached to easily absorbed molecules. Look for "proteinate," "chelate," or "amino acid complex" after the mineral's name to get the best for your dog.


There are probably other things I look for, but those are the top ones.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'm thinkign either california natural or blue buffalo. Does this sound alright? I want to do orijen but just think the price and having to buy only on the internet is a negative.
 

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Nothing wrong with those choices. Between the two, I'd go Blue. Cali Nat is great for allergies and figuring out which ingredients are causing problems, but there is no need for it with a dog tht isn't having issues.
Innova is also a wonderful choice, and is probably avaliable just about anywhere that carries California Natural as they are both made by Natura.:wink:
 

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regular is just fine. Large Breed is a rip off geared to the overly paranoid or uneducated.
I have NEVER been fooled into a large breed formula, and my 90lb Shepherd mix is juuust fine.
 

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regular is just fine. Large Breed is a rip off geared to the overly paranoid or uneducated.
I have NEVER been fooled into a large breed formula, and my 90lb Shepherd mix is juuust fine.
I must be foolhardy, uneducated, and paranoid then, right?
 

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I agree with Lindsey. Puppy, Senior, Large breed, Small breed, maintence are all marketing gimicks to make you think this particular mix of food was designed sepcifically for your dog. There is very minute differences between them. Only barely enough to say they are different. Usually just a couple of ingredients change places on the ingredients list.
 

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I must be foolhardy, uneducated, and paranoid then, right?
I don't think that is what she was saying...but kinda?

The problem with the Ca/P levels in kibbles is that their %'s are either at a minimum or maximum. So that way, they can fluctuate which means they overlap eachother...

When comparing Ca %'s in Orijen large breed puppy and puppy original formulas:

LB: 1.5-1.7%
Original: 1.6-1.8%

Same thing for Phosphorus:

LB: 1.10-1.3%
Original: 1.2-1.4%

How are you to know exactly how much Ca there is in the particular batch you get, when they are fluctuating in their present levels? And if it really does vary that much, wouldn't it all even out in the end...I mean between different bags or different batches?

What if you bought 4 or 5 bags of LB kibble and their actual Ca % was equal to 1.6% and P % was equal to 1.2% and that food last you through the majority of the growing period? Basically it would mean that you were feeding the equivalent to the original formula??? But paid the price for the LB formula?
 

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I don't think that is what she was saying...but kinda?

The problem with the Ca/P levels in kibbles is that their %'s are either at a minimum or maximum. So that way, they can fluctuate which means they overlap eachother...

When comparing Ca %'s in Orijen large breed puppy and puppy original formulas:

LB: 1.5-1.7%
Original: 1.6-1.8%

Same thing for Phosphorus:

LB: 1.10-1.3%
Original: 1.2-1.4%

How are you to know exactly how much Ca there is in the particular batch you get, when they are fluctuating in their present levels? And if it really does vary that much, wouldn't it all even out in the end...I mean between different bags or different batches?

What if you bought 4 or 5 bags of LB kibble and their actual Ca % was equal to 1.6% and P % was equal to 1.2% and that food last you through the majority of the growing period? Basically it would mean that you were feeding the equivalent to the original formula??? But paid the price for the LB formula?
Yes, there is a range and that is because of the way they sample. In order to get a sample, the usual protocol is to collect 20 ten gram samples from 20 different bags from the same batch. Within those small samples, there is variation that they must allow for. The optimal is the average in each range which is the intended amount by the company.

When dealing with such small percentages, they make a substantial difference.

Let us take what my puppy is eating at 3 cups per day, which would be appropriate for either kibble.

The LB is 115g per cup, so he is eating 345g total, so he would be eating 5.52g of Ca per day.

Of the regular puppy, he would be eating 3 120g cups a day. At a total of 360g per day, 6.12g of Ca per day.

While that is "only" a 10.9% increase per day, that is very substantial when discussing small nutrients such as minerals. "Only" a 10.9% increase of selenium or Vitamin A would kill most animals. While that is not that dramatic with calcium, one can bet my bottom dollar that it makes a difference later on.

10.9% is actually quite a bit. What if you were making 10.9% more or had to pay a sales tax of 10.9%? It makes a difference then, too.

Where I buy my kibble, the two kibbles are the same price.

When I first started feeding Tobi Orijen, he was on puppy and did not do as well as he is on large breed puppy.

I have faith that the company is doing their best to go for the average value and that is what good companies do: I should know as I work with a few doing testing on the feeds to find out those number and fecals to determine actual digestibilities of the feeds. When the numbers don't match, they fix 'em so they do.
 

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where I buy Orijen the large breed and regular puppy are the same price anyway so I just default to large breed for my lab.
 
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